The ancient war between the Philistines and Israelites

I was just doing some self study on the history of the Middle East; this Middle East thing which seems to be jammed down our throats every day causing unrest in our minds. Its such a little skirmish involving a relatively small amount of people on a small piece of land - yet it dominates the world human psyche through our media. If this is some ploy to distract our attention from other matters and cause us unrest, then let me tell you.. they're doing a good job.

On to the post..

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Reading on the history of the Middle East - in particular, the region of Canaan, I couldn't help but notice that the word 'Philistine' is similar to 'Palestine', and read that the 'Philistines' were depicted as the ancient arch-enemies of the Israelites in the Bible.

Could it be true, (I'm sure others know better than me on this topic..) ..that the Israelis of today are the descendents of the Israelites, and the Palestinians of today are the descendents of the Philistines?

Here are some excerpts from this article on the Philistines.

"A few biblical texts, such as the Ark Narrative .. seem to portray Late Iron I and Early Iron II memories. They (the Philistines) are mentioned more than 250 times, the majority in the Deuteronomistic history, and are depicted as among the arch-enemies of the Israelites, a serious and recurring threat .."

"The Bible paints the Philistines as the main enemy of the Israelites (prior to the rise of the Assyrian Empire between the 10th century BC and late 7th century BC) with a state of almost perpetual war between the two peoples."

"Battles between Israel and the Philistines

The following is a list of battles purported in the Bible between Israel and the Philistines:[25]

The Battle of Shephelah (2 Chronicles 28:18).
Israel defeated at the Battle of Aphek, Philistines capture the Ark (1 Samuel 4:1–10)—see Eben-Ezer; Aphek.
Philistines defeated at the Battle of Eben-Ezer (1 Samuel 7:3–14).
Skirmish at Michmash, Philistines routed by Jonathan and his men (1 Samuel 14).
Near the Valley of Elah, David defeats Goliath in single combat (1 Samuel 17).
The Philistines defeat Israel on Mount Gilboa, killing King Saul and his three sons Jonathan, Abinadab and Malkishua (1 Samuel 31).
Hezekiah defeats the Philistines as far as Gaza and its territory (2 Kings 18:5–8)."

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My comment: That's interesting - there is a Gaza back then also.

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"Another theory, proposed by Jacobsohn and supported by others, is that the name derives from the attested Illyrian locality Palaeste, whose inhabitants would have been called Palaestīnī according to normal grammatical practice.[13]"

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Some excerpts from footnotes:

"11. Drews 1998, p. 49: "As the Egyptian province in Asia collapsed after the death of Merneptah, and as the area that identified itself as ‘Canaan’ shrank to the coastal cities beneath the Lebanon range, the names ‘Philistia’ and ‘Philistines’ (or, more plainly, ‘Palestine’ and ‘Palestinians’) came to the fore""

"21. Drews 1998, p. 49: "Our names ‘Philistia’ and ‘Philistines’ are unfortunate obfuscations, first introduced by the translators of the LXX and made definitive by Jerome’s Vg. When turning a Hebrew text into Greek, the translators of the LXX might simply—as Josephus was later to do—have Hellenized the Hebrew פְּלִשְׁתִּים as Παλαιστίνοι, and the toponym פְּלִשְׁתִּ as Παλαιστίνη. Instead, they avoided the toponym altogether, turning it into an ethnonym. As for the ethnonym, they chose sometimes to transliterate it (incorrectly aspirating the initial letter, perhaps to compensate for their inability to aspirate the sigma) as φυλιστιιμ, a word that looked exotic rather than familiar, and more often to translate it as άλλόφυλοι. Jerome followed the LXX’s lead in eradicating the names, ‘Palestine’ and ‘Palestinians’, from his Old Testament, a practice adopted in most modern translations of the Bible.""

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So what do others think?

Are the Israelis of today the descendents of the Israelites in the Bible, and the Palestinians the descendents of the Philistines?

Or are they genetically assimilated populations, far from the peoples of thousands of years ago, taking on some fantasy roles of the Bible?

Whatever the case may be - a fantasy, or a war lasting for thousands of years - its pretty lame and ridiculous.. and the good people of this Earth do not deserve your nonsense.

Whatever the case may be - a fantasy, or a war lasting for thousands of years - its pretty lame and ridiculous.. and the good people of this Earth do not deserve your nonsense.

That about says it all!

But the my god is better than your god crowd continues the eons long silliness!

a reply to: nOraKat

Don't think they related because Palestinians are mostly Greek descent if not mistaken. Philistines are descendants of the Casluchim in Genesis 10:14. The Casluhim were perhaps true ancient African Egyptians that built the pyramids. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of history might enlighten us.

You would think that any peoples, having fought each other for almost 10 thousand years, might have learned something about the Futility of War.

But no, they just keep doing the same thing with different weapons.

Is there something in the water or is a genetic abnormality.

Perhaps both sides are just too damn dumb to learn.

P

When the Roman's enslave, killed and expelled the population of Judah (It's correct name) they then renamed it Palastine after the Philistine's though by that time the Philistines where either married into the Jewish people or else had vanished for other reason's so effectively did not any longer exist and had not for about 600 years prior that that point, so the name palastine was a puntive measure to remove Judah from history in there time honored way to treating there enemy's (They sowed the field's of both Sparta and Carthage with salt to prevent them being rebuilt and then built there own city's on the site's of them enough time had passed for the salt to have leeched away, as well as many other city's or provinces that fought them Too hard for them to tolerate or else rebelled against them), they also began the tradition of Jewish persecution and indeed the persecution of the early church which was seen as a jewish sect by them may also have had it's origin in this imperial policy.

There is some suggestion that the Philistines whom were a Pheonician colony similar to Carthage itself and where a sea going people may have migrated as well out of the area and where linked through trade and some culture to the greek's.

So that in mind whenever someone call's Judah Palastine it remind's the Jew's of there expulsion by the conquering Roman's and there 1900 year exile as well as the persecution that though integrated into the christian faith at least since the time it became the state religion of the Roman empire had it's origins in that same bloody period of there history, most Jewish IDF recruit's and school children are taken to Masada and told the story of the Patriot's and how they died rather than surrender there homeland holding out for years after the expulsion of the rest of the Jew's from there ancient homeland until the Roman's besieging them used Jewish slave's knowing that they could not fire down upon them without breaking there own religion to build a ramp up to the top of the mesa and allow battering ram's to be used against the wall's of Masada.

Indeed the remains of the ramp are still there today and when the Roman's penetrated the wall they found no resistance as the defenders had opted to take there own live's rather than leave there homeland, only a woman and two children who the Roman's treated well as they respected the Suicide of the other defenders and saw them as honorable, survived by hiding, probably her husband was dead and each man had been tasked with killing his own family and himself by slitting there throat's.

So the Jewish IDF are tought about these last true patriot's and hold them as paragons of Israeli Patrotism, indeed many hope that they too will have that faith and conviction should it come there time if there homeland was stolen but would more likely die fighting than kill themselves like the defenders of Masada.

Here is a good site on more recent Jewish history, www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

And here is some stuff about Masada, www.jpost.com... and bible.org...

You must understand that for there time in exile every generation of Jew has cried for there homeland, even when they built homes and communtys they were alway's the outsider, alway's the persecuted and hated by people who told them had had murdered a man that they had never met or known except that he was a jew that had been like many of there own people crucified by the Roman's ( the temple priests before the rebellion had been appointed by Rome and where under control of Rome not by there own people just as Herod an Arab had been appointed king of Judah by Rome even though the Arab's had even then been age old enemy's of the Jew's ).

So being in exile made many among the Jewish community feel less than fully alive but they had the hope that only there faith could give them that one day they would go home to the land God had given them and that drove and gave strength to there culture in the face of constant outside persecution even though likely most descendants' of the jew's expelled are now not jewish and have no idea that there ancestors where jew's, a small but alway's growing and alway's persecuted community of Jew's survived through being victim of massacre's, rape's (Hacidic jew's have a lot of Cossak blood and not by choice), expulsion's and holocaust, sadly this made them introspective and to isloate themselves from other culture's and outsiders.

But even in there homeland the persecution followed them so they fought back and they took what is there's from those whom had taken it when they had been expelled or after it had changed hand's through the ages as one of the most invaded territories in history.

When they first started to return en mass there were problems with Arab's who on one occasion well before the state of israel, indeed near the start of the twentieth century attacked a jewish village in the night, they slit the throat's of the children, but that is only one occurance.

www.science.co.il...
www.camera.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.eretzyisroel.org...
www.answering-islam.org...

Now here is a very important and almost forgotten piece of history about a german first world war officer whom prevented a massacre of jew's.
www.israeldailypicture.com...

There is so much but today all you will find how bad Israel is, how bad the Palastinians have it and how the Jews are blamed by anti semitic mouth crappers for every ill in the world.

a reply to: glend

The palastinians are heavily mixed and include Jewish ancestor's though they are predominantly (nearly 100 percent) muslim.
There may be some greek blood but not that much and they are mostly of Islamic conquest descent with egyptian, messopotamian and Turkik blood as well as very strong level's of Arab descent (Perhaps the largest proportion), they also include european ancestry from the time of the crusade's.

The Greek's themselves are not the pure race they used to be though and have a lot of persian ancestry as well as other but they are still Greek's and rightly proud of there heritage.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Just found a Hebrew University Study of Palestinian DNA.

DNA studies which show that both the Palestinians and Jews are descended from the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey.Perhaps more surprising, Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews. Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line. We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.

Anyone who is familiar with Hebrew history should not be surprised by the DNA results. After all, the Bible records that after King Solomon’s death, the Kingdom of Israel split into northern and southern kingdoms. When the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered and taken into captivity by the Assyrians in 745-702 B.C., most were sent to the east — never to return, Hagerman notes.

So it appears the vast majority of Palestinians were the original Jews but converted to Islam from invasions by Islamic states. Makes today's acts of aggression against one another even the more crazier.

The fact that these presently fighting groups are not even the same people from those thousands of years ago makes you wonder where the true currents of this activity originate.

a reply to: glend

Indeed correct and the expulsion also led to many jew's fleeing east when the vengeful Romans' came back, Muhammad forcible converted and murdered several Jewish tribes whom lived alongside the Arab's in arabia so that is no surprise but the motive for this war was always more about religion and culure than anything else.
Of course it is also about identity and tradition but I wish both side's had that ingrained into the consciousness it might fix a few thing's.
Bad blood in the family.

a reply to: nOraKat

I think Einstein Letters speak volumes. The fighting has nothing to do with religion or race, its all about a political parties that want their way or the highway. Religion always gets blamed for political parties usurping religion for power.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I don't believe half the crud I read in history books because its written by the victors that always demonize their enemy, no matter, which side you look. Recent history has been recorded by organizations like True Torah Jews. They have letters from the original Jews in Palestine that testify that Jews and Muslums were peacefully living together and looking after each others children. That seems to all have changed when political parties entered the arena. Its time for a cleansing. Everyone should turn to God and remove the false hatred from their hearts.

a reply to: glend

That seems to all have changed when political parties entered the arena. Its time for a cleansing. Everyone should turn to God and remove the false hatred from their hearts.

I second that

They say money is the root of all evil , but personally I think its a toss up with political parties. Not sure but I think its political parties are the worst.

a reply to: glend

Once again I agree totally, here are two more page's linked to your one for anyone interested in Palastinian's having Jewish ancestry.
This one is interesting as it references the poor rural Jew's whom in many cases where not expelled but stayed on to feed the Roman's and I can imagine something similar even during the time of the Babylonian exile and many samaritan's actually having been poor Judaean farmers then as well but displaced to the fringe of society with the return of the city Jew's.

This is one Good man who tried to sow peace and bring people around a table.
en.wikipedia.org...
epiphenom.fieldofscience.com...

These two merely site's merely serve to provide confirmation of the site You pointed out though I have long believed it anyway, of course there are millions of black jew's as well both ethiopian's with jewish ancestry and the Lemba tribe whose genetic material has passed out into east africa and now live in south africa.

But then from a religious point of view God told Jacob he would bless all nations and family's of man by his seed, meaning that one day everyone will have a bit of jewish ancestry weather they know it or not and there are more in europe than would believe it as only a fragment of the jew's where able to cling to there traditions over the two thousand years and most that the Roman's enslaved of course lost there religion, where are there children.

a reply to: nOraKat
They are connected, but the connection is indirect.
The Philistines gave their name to the country, for outsiders, and the modern Palestinians have taken their name from the country.
In any case, nations are more "mixed" than you might think, and the divisions between them are formed more by language and culture than by blood.
A case in point is the fact that the modern English nation has more Celtic blood in its ancestry, and the modern Scottish nation has more Anglo-Saxon blood in its ancestry, than either side would readily admit.

In Roman times, southern Palestine was Judaea. But the ancient Philistines of the coastlands had probably been converted rather than exterminated, so there would have been a Philistine element in the Jews of that time.
The occupants of the land in Ottoman times were Islamic, and it's possible that many of their ancestors had come in through the Arab invasions. But perhaps at least some of them were descended from Jews living there in the time of Jesus.
Those Ottoman-time farmers would not have thought of themselves as a distinct nation; "Palestinian" is a comparatively new invention, the way their descendants define themselves over against the incoming Jews.
However, it's just possible, by coincidence, that there might be strands of genuine Philistine blood in their make-up.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
In any case, nations are more "mixed" than you might think, and the divisions between them are formed more by language and culture than by blood.

That's a good way to look at it.

a reply to: LABTECH767

stole my thunder. i was going to post on that very same line.

the Philistines are thought by many scholars to be from Crete, and are the people that the Egyptians referred to as the sea people that Ramses III conquered and exiled them to Canaan. where it is thought that they then absorbed the Canaanites.

the Philistines disappeared to history after being conquered by Assyrian Empire, and are thought to have been absorbed by the Babylonian and Persian empires and their culture and ethnicity lost for ever.

there many scholars that say the Semitic culture sprang forward form the fertile crescent, and all of the "ites" are from there, including Hebrews/Israelite/Jews and Arabs.

the people that call themselves Palestinians today are not related to Philistines, they are of Arab decent or Semitic origin.

there is also documented evidence that both Jews and Arabs have lived in what is now Israel from the very beginning until now and at times have lived side by side in relative peace and have even come together to fight invaders, there is a great deal of evidence that they fought the Christian Crusaders together.





ETA: another good source to read is a book called HISTORY OF THE ARABS. by PHILIP K. HITTI,PROFESSOR OF SEMITIC LITERATURE. known as a spokesman for the Arab cause for many years. it's big book about a thousand pages haven't read all of it myself just about two thirds.

in 1946 also testified before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that,

“There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

Hitti.. explained that there was actually no such entity as Palestine- never had been; it was historically part of Syria, and "the Sunday schools have done a great deal of harm to us because by smearing the walls of classrooms with maps of Palestine, they associate it with the Jews in the minds of the average American and Englishman"... He asserted that Zionism.. was an imposition on the Arabs of alien way of life which they resented and to which they would never submit.

but he also said in 1944 and gave testimony before U. S. House committee in support of the view that there was no historical justification for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.





THE ARABS

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The Philistines gave their name to the country, for outsiders, ..

Well supposedly they did not even call themselves the Philistines back then.. only outsiders used the term.

"Biblical scholars often trace the word to the Semitic root p-l-š (Hebrew: פלש‎) which means "to divide," "go through," "to roll in," "cover," or "invade."[12] The name of the Philistines in their own language is not known. " - en.wikipedia.org...

Like someone mentioned here, (supposedly) the Romans gave the name to the region to keep out or dis-favor the Judaic/Israelite people.

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Maybe partially, the driving force for all this activity is the Bible/Torah itself, with it's stories of war and battle between the Philistines and Israelite, and the stories of expulsion and return of the Israelite.

a reply to: nOraKat

it is a known fact that roman emperor Hadrian changed the name to Palestine in 132, combining Syria, Judea , and Idumea to form the province of Syria Palaestina. never before on any maps did the name appear only after 132. and it stayed named that until 193 when Syria became Syria Coele and Phoenicein.