A Christian nation: the inescapable paradox must be resolved.

Not a christian, raised one but not one here.

"Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's (secular) and unto God that which is God's (Spiritual)" I paraphrase.

One is personal and the other collective. The two overlap and interpenetrate but are distinct.

One's personal, spiritual perspection informs the collective only in proportion to all other members and their personal/spiritual life/being/understanding.

"Remove the tree from your own eye, before tending to the speck in your brothers" Again I paraphase.

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

And calling citizens of the United States of Ameria "American" is disrespectful to Canadians, Mexicans, Colobumians, etc. who are all Americans too.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: AutumnWitch657

And calling citizens of the United States of Ameria "American" is disrespectful to Canadians, Mexicans, Colobumians, etc. who are all Americans too.

If citizens of the United States of America are offended by being called "Americans" then I would humbly suggest they need to grow thicker skins, regardless of their skin color/country of origin. Please.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

The premise of the OP is that 'Murican Christians are drifting into a mindset that they are victimized and persecuted for their attempts to subordinate laws (just or unjust) put into place by collective society to what they interpret as God's law.

I don't think it is all American Christians or even a large portion of them that think as you described. Let's be honest and recognize that those sorts of people are from a particular political ideology....hard core right-wing.

That small, but vocal group, are the types that want to put the Ten Commandments on every municipal building and force your children to pray before class....etc. I don't know if they think it makes them better Christians by doing those sorts of things, but I don't consider them to be true Christians.

They are "Christians in name only" for political or social reasons. Real Christians walk in the faith.....they don't walk over you with it.

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
The topic here is the idea that the USA was founded "under God" in a literal sense. It seems beyond debate that the predominant language and cultural context of the time was Protestant Christian. I accept that as fact.

Not the Christian God I'm afraid.

At the very least, USA is founded under the Jewish god (in Orthodox Judaism) who is not the same as the Christian God (just as much as the god of the Muslims is not the same)

Because Freemasons who are highly represented among the founders have a ritualized set of beliefs in Freemasonry which has quite many references to Judaism. The hexagram-like Freemason symbol doesn't help setting them apart from Zionism

originally posted by: AutumnWitch657
And just for the record we are Americans not muricans. That just sounds stupid.

Stoopid like this.



or perhaps this?



but I think this sums it up best.

a reply to: johndeere2020

Nope. Not a chance.



"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - John Adams

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity." - John Adams

"I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace." - Samuel Adams

"...to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord..." - Josiah Bartlett

"Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer." - Elias Boudinot

"Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer." - Charles Carroll

"The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Carroll

"Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity." - John Dickenson

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see." - Benjamin Franklin

"...with one heart and voice we may prostrate ourselves at the throne of heavenly grace and present to our Great Benefactor sincere and unfeigned thanks for His infinite goodness and mercy towards us from our birth to the present moment for having above all things illuminated us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, presenting to our view the happy prospect of a blessed immortality." - Elbridge Garry

"Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement." - John Hancock

"[T]hanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [Hebrews 9:27] . . . principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner . . . to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God." - John Hart

"Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast." - Patrick Henry

"It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - Samuel Huntington

"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others." - Thomas Jefferson

"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way." - James Madison

**************

This is just a smattering of quotes from the Founding Fathers. There are tons more. It is ludicrous to suggest they were not defining "under God" as referencing Christianity.

Does this mean "America is a Christian nation?" No. Was it founded by Christians? Yes.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

O K .

How 'bout we call this a country with a secular government founded on Christian principles?

A place where a person can practice their own brand of religion so long as they live under the rule of the laws set forth in our Constitution.

This is the country in which I was raised and I hope it should always remain so.

Now, show me your paradox.

The way I see it, this is about history not repeating itself.

You know how it's always said: "We never learn, history always repeats itself". Well, in this case I believe our forefathers made the right decision in not allowing religious rule, seeing how in history the results are always bad.

I remember reading a while ago, how many came to the America's for religious freedom. How our forefathers witnessed new colonies forming around different religious beliefs. Not only witnessing various religious belief colonies, but the alienation of those they felt were undesirable, and power plays between colonies of who's belief was right and who's beliefs should be law.

Our forefathers witnessed what would happen if there was any kind of religious rule in their government.

They were very smart men.

The bottom line is that we have hundreds of thousnads of laws that we interput. The majority of interputers all believe in GOD.

originally posted by: teamcommander
a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

O K .

How 'bout we call this a country with a secular government founded on Christian principles?

And --- what exactly are Christian principles? Pretty damned arrogant that Christians think only they can treat humans with love, humanity, dignity etc. the Christian Right of today certainly doesn't behave that way.

a reply to: teamcommander

How 'bout we call this a country with a secular government founded on Christian principles?

What are Christian principles? How do you think Christian principles influence the wording of the Bill Of Rights or the Constitution? Do you see the principles of salvation verses damnation, for example, incorporated in the Constitution and laws?

a reply to: Annee

Like minds think alike!

a reply to: ignorant_ape

treaty of Tripoli - deep sixes the Christian nation argument with its 1st paragraph

Actually the Constitution itself 'deep sixes' the notion of ANY religion in Government or Government in religion.

The treaty of Tripoli just provides example of the application of the Constitutional principle and expresses in a way that explicitly contradicts those who think the founders had some double-plus secret meaning about it.

a reply to: adjensen

"I'm an orthodox Christian, and if the United States started making moves toward becoming a theocracy, I'd leave. Why? Because it, and I, would be subject to the "interpretation of God's Law" by men who most likely disagree with my interpretation of God's Law."

I call myself a virtual atheist, and having read your post, I feel that you truly understand divine wisdom. I can imagine no God that doesn't rise to the level of rational perfection. Your God I can honor and respect. And that applies to you as well.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

I personally believe the founders were staunchly secular.

Your opinion doesn't stand up to scrutiny, however.

Many at the Constitutional Convention were practicing preachers, albeit of various denominations. The State of Maryland had an Established Church (Roman Catholic) defined in their Constitution (which they had to remove when they adopted the U.S. Constitution).

For many, the secularism built into the Constitution was to PROTECT their own personal religion FROM OTHERS, not because they wished enforce secularism on anyone.

a reply to: Stuyvesant

I think the [correct] assumption from the OP was that Protestant Christianity was the predominant worldview of the founders.

And in other news, water is wet; film at 11.

No, really, that is just such a trivial assertion. However, many of the founding generation, most famously Thomas Jefferson for example, were not practicing Christians at all - they were Deists - even though they were certainly 'raised' in the Christian community. And don't forget that there were very large Roman Catholic communities as well, not just Protestant. As I pointed out above, Maryland had an established church: the Roman Catholic church.

We did indeed come to these shores because of religious intolerance, but the Pilgrims/Puritans were not advocates of "any religion" - they were advocates of a different sect of Protestant Christianity than what was imposed under the Church of England.

That is an absurd description. The Puritans came to America not to escape religions intolerance, but to practice religious intolerance. They were not persecuted in England; they were shunned when they tried to force their practice on others.

When you look at the worldview of people who signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, they were Christians

Except for the ones who weren't.

, and the assumption (that the phrase "under God" in historical political documents refers to the Protestant Christian God) is a safe and sane one.

No it most definitely is not. Any such reference in 'founding generation' documents is far more likely to refer to the Free-Masonic universal God or 'Nature's God' of the Deists.

a reply to: rnaa

And don't forget that there were very large Roman Catholic communities as well, not just Protestant.

There was a grand total of one Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll (ironically, the last signer to pass away) -- don't overestimate the influence of the church on the founding of America. Because the colonies were English colonies, it is understandable that most of them would be former members of the Church of England -- the Catholic church was illegal in England until 1829.

a reply to: Stuyvesant Thank you for he finale, I was concerned with all those usual quotes I get from 'those people' .
If this is in fact a Christian country, as some say, what does that mean? In what way does my status as a Christian-or-not, affect my duties, obligations, rights, and privileges as a citizen?
Like f'rinstance
1)Is my taxation different?
2) is my eligibility for military service different?
3) Is my subjection to military conscription different?
4) Who is Christian? What qualifies? Do Catholics or Orthodox count? ME Chaldeans? etc
last and worst:
5) WHO IS IN CHARGE OF WHO IS CHRISTIAN!?

originally posted by: rnaa
Many at the Constitutional Convention were practicing preachers, albeit of various denominations. The State of Maryland had an Established Church (Roman Catholic) defined in their Constitution (which they had to remove when they adopted the U.S. Constitution).

For many, the secularism built into the Constitution was to PROTECT their own personal religion FROM OTHERS, not because they wished enforce secularism on anyone.

100% correct...

Most are completely unaware of this fact simply because of all the indoctrination.

"The truth tastes funny to those accustomed to a steady diet of lies." ~ Dave vonKleist

Mr. Patton claims that this is not a Christian nation. Is that right? The founders who built this great nation would disagree. One hundred fifty-five of the one hundred fifty-seven men who were considered America's founders were devout Christians! Thomas Jefferson, the man who coined the phrase ‘separation of Church and state’, it seems, did not abide by his very own ‘separation of Church and state’ doctrine. The reason he did not is because there was no such thing!

The Lie of Separation of Church and State

a reply to: rnaa

A few responses for rnaa:

1. Thomas Jefferson was indeed a Christian. His particular personal theology as a "Deist" was simply an heretical version of Christianity. His practicing "religion" was Christianity. The church he attended was the Episcopal Church. He studied the Bible. He referenced himself as a Christian. His Unitarian "bent" was as a Christian, not as a Druid or a Muslim or a Pagan or a Hindu.

2. Hahaha, I laughed when I read your comment about Puritans *practicing* religious intolerance. Okay, I can live with that. I stand corrected. I bet they were indeed!

3. I provided many quotes from the founding fathers about their faith/belief in Christ, made the assertion that the founding fathers were Christian, to which you replied "Except for the ones who weren't." Who was that, exactly?

If you are referring to those crazy "Deists," I'd just point out the "Creator" they happened to believe in was the Christian God, but their theology was, in the strict sense of the word, heretical. Without exception (to my knowledge), they acknowledged Jesus Christ and Christianity. They weren't worshipping Gaia or anything. I'd like to see your historical sources for them [or quotes from them] that reference their belief in some "Free-Masonic universal God or 'Nature's God.'

I will be happy to admit my mistake, I just don't know of any founding fathers that were not Christian, in the basic sense of the word. Quite simply, their Protestant Christianity had been deistically-influenced; that is all.