A question to Americans defending Israel

a reply to: kinneret

I agree...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Every nation has rogue element to deal with, its a question of whether they extinguish it or let it consume them. I think this is a big issue in todays world!

and....

Welcome to ATS Kinneret....

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: g146541

Congratulations on learning how to use Google!

Orwellianated is not a real word. but

for the idea

Those hamas folks are just freedom fighting

HOnestly though? so thats what its called now? have you ever been to Gaza? have you ever seen in your own eyes how the Hamas manipulate and use their civilian population, their kids? I have seen (in person and to my utter dibelief)... i know how they view their palestinian civilian population and it is not freedom fighting, it is inhumane manipulation.
These Hamas so called 'freedom fighters' are the enemies of anybody who condemns using children as human shields or putting civilians in the line of fire intentionally in order to fight their propaganda war!

Maybe this is part of the answer to OP title question!

First off, thank you!
Now onto the meat.
Nope I have never been to Palestine, but this does not make killing innocents (American or whomever) right.
The only propaganda I know of is being spattered out of israel at an alarming rate, the rest of us need no propaganda as we have truth to present to the world, and it is working!
I have seen israelis use children as shields, but have never seen hamas do the same.
Who knows maybe they do.
Bottom line, who has the real death toll?
But this is mostly off topic, so let's stop derailing and deflecting the thread huh?
Why would a country support another that continually stabs them in the back?
The israeli regime has no honor.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: kinneret

I agree...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Every nation has rogue element to deal with, its a question of whether they extinguish it or let it consume them. I think this is a big issue in todays world!

and....

Welcome to ATS Kinneret....

It was quite the rogue element that attacked the USS Liberty, heck they even had shot callers on the US side call back support aircraft.

a reply to: southbeach

But why is there a blockade on Gaza? Because militants are using any means necessary to smuggle in weapons to attack Israel. They have been caught smuggling rockets in ambulances and hiding them in schools and mosques. Their stated aim - as per their own words - is not defense by the destruction of Israel. At a certain point we really have to start taking these people seriously when they outright state that they want to destroy us. Many of them are the enemies of the 'West' in general.

Even Egypt has had enough of their war mongering. You know things have gotten bad when Egypt takes the initiative in destroying their smuggling tunnels without any prompting from Israel.

If you want to know how it really is there, talk to the people there. The entire infrastructure of Gaza is falling apart and has been since before this current round of conflict. Instead of fixing the horrible leaking sewage problem, Hamas takes the concrete sent for such repairs and uses it to build more tunnels. Instead of distributing aid donated to the people, Hamas takes the aid and sells it in an attempt to raise funds for more weaponry and tunnels (or they just pocket it, depending). Meanwhile tens of thousands of civil servants (non-militants) who are officially on Hamas's payroll go months without being paid as the PA uses them as leverage. I have to raise money to send to one of my friends in Gaza because his family can't even afford food.

Did you know that Khaled Mashaal (head of Hamas) is a billionaire whose family allegedly owns stock in the Israeli defense industry? People spend so much time focusing on the Jewish side of the conspiracies that it's easy to forget the Muslim side. The people of Gaza are just as much pawns trapped by their own government as they are trapped by Israel. Make no mistake about it, if even half of the wealthy Arabs who paid lip service to the Palestinian cause put their money where their mouthes are (or at the very least, demanded real accountability as to where the existing aid is going) there would be a very different Gaza today and the Palestinians would probably have a real state. The mainstream media likes to portray all the Palestinians as a poor group of disenfranchised peasants waving sticks at their conquerors, but they are an amazingly resourceful and intelligent group of people. They just as capable of having a functional government and being real partners for peace. But first someone is going to have to call out the corruption on the top and stop treating the common folk like savages incapable of knowing any better.

Everyone is someone else's terrorist in the end. But why should we (Americans and Brits) willingly ally ourselves with people whose stated aims aren't freedom and security for the region but death and destruction for those they perceive as Western colonists (including all Israeli Jews, even the sizable amount whose families came from Arab countries). Rather than lament, we better thank G-d they don't have the heavy duty weaponry or we'd all likely be in the middle of a nuclear war. Remember that just below the surface of the mainstream pro-Israel media is what only passes for alternative media here but is in reality just the mainstream anti-Israel media of the Arab world, translated into English (and the gullible anti-Israel bloggers who can be counted on to propagate those tropes as fact just as reliably as pro-Israel bloggers can be counted on to do for their side).

This is in reply to the original questions: "...why do American members here back Israel to the hilt when they have been shown to use terrorism against your country and attack them deliberately? ...Why defend a country that would kill your fellow men so easily and without remorse?"

Answer: Israel is America's political & military ally (and a US military foothold) in a turbulent region which impacts America's security and economy. That doesn't mean Israel (or any other USA ally for that matter) & the USA trust each other or don't engage in espionage against one another.

I'm a [new] American member here at ATS. What's my alternative? Back Hamas, Fatah, or the Muslim Brotherhood? Back Iran? LMAO. No thanks - I'll continue to back Israel, even if the current US administration seems to snub them and seems to have more allegiance with Islamic organizations than with Judaic ones.

Israel is way more sane than its Islamic surrounding countries.

originally posted by: Stuyvesant
This is in reply to the original questions: "...why do American members here back Israel to the hilt when they have been shown to use terrorism against your country and attack them deliberately? ...Why defend a country that would kill your fellow men so easily and without remorse?"

Answer: Israel is America's political & military ally (and a US military foothold) in a turbulent region which impacts America's security and economy. That doesn't mean Israel (or any other USA ally for that matter) & the USA trust each other or don't engage in espionage against one another.

I'm a [new] American member here at ATS. What's my alternative? Back Hamas, Fatah, or the Muslim Brotherhood? Back Iran? LMAO. No thanks - I'll continue to back Israel, even if the current US administration seems to snub them and seems to have more allegiance with Islamic organizations than with Judaic ones.

Israel is way more sane than its Islamic surrounding countries.

You do know you don't have to back anyone...

a reply to: sosobad

Yep, I know that - and my "backing" of Israel (in favor of the other organizations/counties who oppose Israel) is purely philospohical and relegated to discussion forums. I have clearly-defined personal political (and religious) views.

But in general terms and from a common-sense historical view, I don't think it takes a rocket-scientist to see that Israel and its Judaic foundation is way more 'likable' than the alternatives in the region.

(I don't subscribe to Zionist conspiracy theories, I am not a Jew, and I have no sympathy whatsoever for Islam.)

a reply to: g146541


please, don't let your hatred of israel blind you to history.
at least two universities, and leading research facilitates were in israel and established before WWI
here are two.

Mikveh Israel (Hebrew: מִקְוֵה יִשְׂרָאֵל; "Hope of Israel") is the first Jewish agricultural school in Israel.[1] established in 1870. Mikveh Israel (Hebrew: מִקְוֵה יִשְׂרָאֵל; "Hope of Israel") is the first Jewish agricultural school in Israel.[1]

note another "agricultural research station" as they called it was established in 1909 in Atlit by Aaron Aaronsohn.
where he discovered, Triticum dicoccoides, or Emmer Wheat which is concidered to be the mother of all wheat.

he also founder the "agricultural research station" in Rehovot in 1921, which is now known as Agricultural Research Organization (ARO).

ARO and Europe
Close and long-standing relations also hold between ARO researchers and their counterparts in Europe. The setting up of bi-national funds with the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Holland and Italy has done much to reinforce these links. The European connection has also expanded since the opening out of Eastern Europe in the early 1990's, with ARO personnel actively assisting their colleagues in these countries to restructure their R&D effort and to introduce modern agricultural production methods.

The Technion – Israel Institute of Technology (Hebrew: הטכניון – מכון טכנולוגי לישראל‎) is a public research university in Haifa, Israel. Established in 1912. Technion – Israel Institute of Technology

note Albert Einstein served as the firt president and started the Technion Society.

in 1912/1913 not sure what year it was, but it was after the Titanic sank, Nathan Straus, his brother Isidor, and their wives were going to a conference in rome. it is said that Isidor and his wife are the ones who refused to take seats on the life boats.

Hebrew Health Station in Jerusalem, founded by Nathan Straus engaged in medical and public health research, operating departments for public hygiene, eye diseases and bacteriologgy.[19] The station manufactured vaccines against typhus and cholera, and developed methods of pest control to eliminate field mice. The Pasteur Institute affiliated with the station developed a rabies vaccine.[19] Departments for microbiology, biochemistry, bacteriology, and hygiene were opened at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, founded on Mount Scopus in 1925.
Science and technology in Israel

again these are but a few, and at that time people all over the world were working on break through's in all sorts of fields.

notice that these all started all under the Ottoman Empire, which if memory serves was a Muslim Empire.
i wonder why the Arabs turned against the jews so fast after the fall of the empire, could it be they just hate jews, i think so. they lived side by side with them for almost 400 yrs in relative peace. the Ottomans ruled North Africa, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and the Arabian Peninsula.

from all the dates the reseach falcilties were established and knowing the the people were jews, the turks seem pretty benevolent towards them.






ETA: for those who say they don't have a right to be there, there is documented evidence that jews of both Sephardi and Ashkenazi lineage have been in the land from abraham until now, under various rule.

here is just one source, like i said it's fast.

History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel

as always on a wiki page there is a whole list of references,bibliography and links if you want to do the research yourself.

a reply to: kinneret
I respect your points.
We all have the right to free speech.
I am not anti Israel and never will be.
Corruption is everywhere,in all races.
But we see and what alarms us is the murder of innocent civilians by what is looking more and more by the day part of the war plan.

Evil is an energy that attaches itself to the host.It destroys all around the host for what seems legitimate reasons and then in the end destroys the host,it's purpose is to bring death and destruction and in the end it destroys itself when all is consumed.
Israel is going down the same path of Hitler,out of control tribalism,justifying the deaths of innocents because someone of the same race fired a rocket.
Could you stand before God and say,i dropped a bomb on Gaza that killed 5 kids and then justify it because some loony bin shot at your Army or Israeli civilians?
Don't get radicalized and kill the innocent.
There is never ever justification for killing kids.

a reply to: pennydrops

Go ahead

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

please, don't let your hatred of reality blind you, there was no university or anything at all in israel before ww1 simply because there was no israel yet until about 40 years later.
Even if their is a research facility there, this still does not negate the FACT that israel steals more tech than they invent.
Like I said before, winning the race is easy when you start at the finish line.
There have been some very smart jews, but we are not discussing jews, we are speaking of those who would support israel even though they have repeatedly stabbed us in the back.

a reply to: g146541

Either steals or just claims due to inventors having dual citizenship maybe.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Fargoth
Because there bible tells them so.

This is one of the best reason why a lot of Americans back Israel. They actually believe that the Jews have to be in control of Israel for the second coming. Many people also believe the hype that God gave them this land but never seem to stop and think that God cursed them and threw them off the land and that he would choose the time for them to return.

JEW DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN RELIGIOUS.
in fact, the current majority of jews in israel are not religious.
it really sounds like you guys all think that we're some big religious community here.

originally posted by: eyalgoldx
the current majority of jews in israel are not religious.
it really sounds like you guys all think that we're
some big religious community here.

Kabutz is a Cult-Commune and NOT religious, so you are indeed correct.
More people especially 'Christians' need to know this.
Ironic in that these None-religious dudes are occupying "Holey-land"


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Double post,