A question to Americans defending Israel

I have debated over the last few days whether or not to make this thread but in light of some of the comments lately I will go ahead.

This thread will deal with the special relationship that the US and Israel share, let me get started with

The Lavon Affair

The Lavon Affair refers to a series of failed Israeli planned and sponsored terrorist attacks, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation, a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence for plans to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American and British-owned civilian targets, cinemas, libraries and American educational centers. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone. The operation caused no casualties, except for those terrorists of the cell who committed suicide after being captured.

In the early 1950s, the United States initiated a more activist policy of support for Egyptian nationalism; this was often in contrast with British policies of maintaining its regional hegemony. Israel feared that this policy, which encouraged Britain to withdraw its military forces from the Suez Canal, would embolden Egyptian President Nasser's military ambitions towards Israel. Israel first sought to influence this policy through diplomatic means but was frustrated. In the summer of 1954 Colonel Binyamin Gibli, the chief of Israel's military intelligence, Aman, initiated Operation Susannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of terrorism in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the British withdrawal from Egypt. According to historian Shabtai Teveth, who wrote one of the more detailed accounts, the assignment was "To undermine Western confidence in the existing [Egyptian] regime by generating public insecurity and actions to bring about arrests, demonstrations, and acts of revenge, while totally concealing the Israeli factor. The team was accordingly urged to avoid detection, so that suspicion would fall on the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, 'unspecified malcontents' or 'local nationalists'.

This is the part of the Lavon Affair I find the most interesting

In March 2005, Israel publicly honored the surviving terrorists, and President Moshe Katsav presented each with a certificate of appreciation for their efforts on behalf of the state, ending decades of official denial by Israel

USS Liberty incident

The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy motor torpedo boats, on 8 June 1967, during the Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship. At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish. Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity, though others, including survivors of the attack, have rejected these conclusions and maintain that the attack was deliberate

During the Six-Day War between Israel and several Arab nations, the United States of America maintained a neutral country status. Several days before the war began, the USS Liberty was ordered to proceed to the eastern Mediterranean area to perform a signal intelligence collection mission in international waters near the north coast of Sinai, Egypt

Official testimony combined with Liberty's deck log say that throughout the morning of the attack, 8 June, the ship was overflown, at various times and locations, by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft. The primary aircraft type was the Nord Noratlas, in addition to two unidentified delta-wing jets at about 9:00 am Sinai time (GMT+2). Liberty crewmembers say that one of the Noratlas aircraft flew so close to Liberty that noise from its propellers rattled the ship's deck plating, and that the pilots and crewmembers waved to each other

The attack came a few minutes after the crew completed a chemical attack drill, with Captain McGonagle on the command bridge. The crew was in "stand-down mode", with their helmets and life jackets removed, except battle readiness "modified condition three" was set which meant that the ship's four .50 caliber machine guns were manned and ammunition ready for loading and firing. Eight crewmen were either killed immediately or died later, and 75 were wounded. Among the wounded was McGonagle, who was hit in the right thigh and arm. During the attack, antennas were severed, gas drums caught fire, and the ship's flag was knocked down. McGonagle sent an urgent request for help to the Sixth Fleet, "Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft, require immediate assistance."

During the interval, crewmen aboard the Liberty hoisted a large American flag to be clearly identified.

Shelling by the torpedo boats killed Liberty's helmsman. The torpedo boats then launched five torpedoes at the Liberty. At 1235Z (2:35 local time) a torpedo hit Liberty on the starboard side forward of the superstructure, creating a 40 ft (12 m) wide hole in what had been a former cargo hold converted to the ship's research spaces and killing 25 servicemen, almost all of them from the intelligence section, and wounding dozens

The torpedo boats then closed in and strafed the ship's hull with their cannons and machine guns. According to some crewmen, the torpedo boats fired at damage control parties and sailors preparing life rafts for launch

From the start, the response to Israeli statements of mistaken identity ranged between frank disbelief and unquestioning acceptance within the administration in Washington. A communication to the Israeli Ambassador on 10 June, by Secretary Rusk stated, among other things: "At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. ... Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air.... Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. ... The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life."

Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:

I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous

In 2002, Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, U.S. Navy, senior counsel for the Court of Inquiry, said that the Court of Inquiry's findings were intended to cover up what was a deliberate attack by Israel on a ship it knew to be American. In 2004, in response to the publication of Jay Cristol’s book The Liberty Incident, which Boston said was an "insidious attempt to whitewash the facts" he prepared and signed an affidavit in which he said that Admiral Kidd had told him that the government ordered Kidd to falsely report that the attack was a mistake, and that he and Kidd both believed the attack was deliberate.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

And lets not forget this gem



There is much more to that story but I don't want to go on for pages.

Now to my question, why do American members here back Israel to the hilt when they have been shown to use terrorism against your country and attack them deliberately? As far as I can tell Hamas has never attacked the US but the level of hatred some members have for them is extreme. The very country you love was attacked by the same entity that you defend, that is akin to giving comfort to the enemy. Why defend a country that would kill your fellow men so easily and without remorse?

Because their bible tells them so.

Never forget America, "why the military knows Israel did 9/11."

9/11 and Israel: Alan Sabrosky’s Shocking Press TV Interview

originally posted by: Fargoth
Because there bible tells them so.

This is one of the best reason why a lot of Americans back Israel. They actually believe that the Jews have to be in control of Israel for the second coming. Many people also believe the hype that God gave them this land but never seem to stop and think that God cursed them and threw them off the land and that he would choose the time for them to return.

originally posted by: Fargoth
Because there bible tells them so.

That's actually a very accurate assertion.

Doesn't mean they all agree with the stuff they end up doing though. Supporting a nation and it's people doesn't mean supporting every regime that leads those people.

Exe...

I love America but despise my government.

There is no hope for peace in that region till the surrounding Arab nations stop using Palestinians as a proxy against Israel.

And till the west stops using Israel as a proxy against the rest of the ME.

But out of the two involved, Israel in my opinion has a much better chance to change the way they do things in this conflict, I see Hamas never allowing peace with Israel because it doesn't benefit them.

a reply to: sosobad

Do you blame citizens for the actions of their leaders?

a reply to: sosobad

For many years I was satisfied with accepting Israel as a lesser evil in the region. I believe this is the default for many. For some, it's a reverence for the Bible(s). For others, they are programmed by AIPAC. A few are paid shills.

As I've probed deeper in to the many problems our planet faces, I see themes that repeat themselves.

-Claims of superior birthright.
-Claims of vengeance for past injustice
-Religion and affected operatives
-Concentration of wealth

The US and Israel are the common thread tying these corrosive themes together. Islam certainly shares in this bounty of evil, but that's a different thread.

If I was born behind chain link and razor wire I'd be there throwing rocks and building tunnels. I know that the only reason I'm not is because of luck. I believe that if people are truly honest with themselves they will realize this.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: sosobad


Do you blame citizens for the actions of their leaders?

Where in my post did I write that? I am asking the members here that support them, I am not implying that all Americans do.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

If I was born behind chain link and razor wire I'd be there throwing rocks and building tunnels. I know that the only reason I'm not is because of luck. I believe that if people are truly honest with themselves they will realize this.

^^^This right here is probably the best bit of reasoning that I have heard. I myself would be doing the same thing and I know everyone else would too.

You're going to get every crackpot theory and connect it to Israel in one thread, that is all this is.

It is started off with Levon, Liberty, and 9/11.

Drag em all in here to go with the rest of the nonsense.

Soon there will be Israel is really hamas, Isis, Nazis, blah blah blah.

And I predict a few holocaust deniers will show up too for your party.

But to answer your underlying question why support Israel? It is no so much supporting Israel as it is opposing the evil that Islamic Jihad is. Who better to be on that front line than God's chosen people?
I know you will hate that answer but that's what made it so appropriate.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

Who better to be on that front line than God's chosen people?

God is not a rascist…

Men created nations and nationalities and national pride.

Thats how the argument got started who the best is. Claiming God is "on our side" is the oldest trick in the book.

Because after WWII the rest of the world felt guilty over what happened to the Jews, so they decided to "help" them by giving them a home. Of course, since the rest of the world still pretty much hated Jews, they decided to play a good and hopefully lethal "joke" on them by giving them their ancestral land back and dumping them right in the middle of their enemies.

The Arabs were supposed to have killed them off.

Hamas! Hamas! Hamas!

Missiles! Missiles! Missiles!

Self Defense! Self Defense! Self Defense!

Say it with me Now!

//sarc off//

Great work on the thread. Obviously lots of time went into it. S&F. This will draw the haters who cannot see past the dogma. However, it is good to keep asking the questions to move people past that. Personally I have lost hope on the American people waking up on this but I salute your efforts.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

But to answer your underlying question why support Israel? It is no so much supporting Israel as it is opposing the evil that Islamic Jihad is. Who better to be on that front line than God's chosen people?

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Fargoth
Because there bible tells them so.

This is one of the best reason why a lot of Americans back Israel. They actually believe that the Jews have to be in control of Israel for the second coming. Many people also believe the hype that God gave them this land but never seem to stop and think that God cursed them and threw them off the land and that he would choose the time for them to return.

It's even worse than that.

Some believe we are here to make the Jews jealous so they return to Jesus.

That Gentiles were only later grafted in to Heaven. That Jews are the chosen People.

Most Americans do not have the slightest idea what is going on in the ME.

Yet, they back the Jews without question.

Not even realizing the very News they consume is owned by mostly Jews.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

It is started off with Levon, Liberty, and 9/11.

My post didn't mention 9/11

Drag em all in here to go with the rest of the nonsense. Soon there will be Israel is really hamas, Isis, Nazis, blah blah blah.

These two events actually happened and your best argument is blah blah blah? I suppose I should congratulate you on getting something out that isn't a lie this time

And I predict a few holocaust deniers will show up too for your party.

Oops spoke too soon back to lying, I don't see too many of them on ats and they are kicked out pretty quick

It is no so much supporting Israel as it is opposing the evil that Islamic Jihad is.

I don't remember Palestine attacking America, Israel did though.

Who better to be on that front line than God's chosen people?

Did a magic book tell you that by any chance?

a reply to: buster2010

That is the number one reason my Dad backed Israel through the years. That is until I showed him the truth. Now he's a straight up conspiracy nut too!

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

But to answer your underlying question why support Israel? It is no so much supporting Israel as it is opposing the evil that Islamic Jihad is. Who better to be on that front line than God's chosen people?

If you insist to only highlight one part of my paragraph then it is obvious you don't have the grey matter to grasp the meaning.