"Can God create a rock..."

a reply to: adjensen
Hello again adjensen,

"Sorry. I saw this:

I simply want to talk about the question itself.

in your OP and figured that you wanted to talk about the question itself. Which, as I said, is an irrational one -- anyone who thinks that it "proves" something about anything has a shallow grasp of theology (not saying that you do, of course.)"

Sorry, but the very last question I would want to ask is one that is irrational. All I am saying is that you and I have far less answers than questions. You are a theist who accepts truth as revealed, and I am a skeptic who accepts truth as filtered through the rigorous demands of reason and logic. At this point I do not want to imply that your thinking is faulty. We all take umbrage to such denigration. But clearly, you theistic beliefs are built upon a foundation of faith that is non-rational. Once again, the term "non-rational" should not be confused with "irrational". I call myself a virtual atheist, because as a scientist, I am open to the possible revelation of an omniscient, omnipotent spiritual entity. No true scientist will ever say that God does not exist. I should add that I, as the virtual atheist that I am, fully and completely acknowledge the virtue and humanity than lie within the hearts of many fervent religious believers, most probably including yourself.

a reply to: Diderot
Because God can do all things I would have to say he could make a rock so heavy that even he could not lift it...

However that being said know also that this is no real problem...

for if he wanted to move it he would simply have to command it to move and it would do so....

It's time to bow down!

a reply to: Diderot

What for man is impossible is for God possible but God is wise so why would he ever create something like that.

I read many years back about the creation of religion from a hindu perspective. Early Indian philosophers surmised that humans may never be able to unlock the truth of existence with our limited five senses. If the material world was an illusion (Maya) the key to unlocking the truth might exist within ourselves via meditation. One can only know if they succeeded in their conquest by becoming a Hindu.

Science itself might be starting to recognize the veil that hides us from the ultimate truth. But piercing that veil is another matter. That might take another million or so years, if humanity can survive with itself for that long. We need a great many more Einsteins to push us out of the dark ages.

a reply to: LABTECH767
I am torn between answering your specific question and addressing the point of my thread, so I shall attempt to do both.
First is your answer to the paradox of the question of why God would even need or want to create such a rock. Is it possible that you think that your response is persuasive? You should work a little harder to deal with paradoxes, be they spiritual or secular. Moving on, the whole point of my thread was to show how limited our understanding is. I'll leave it at that.

a reply to: 5StarOracle
Dear 5Star, It seems that I walk a fine line between sarcasm and true belief. Let me address the 2nd option. Do you so easily dismiss a genuine paradox and claim that God can do that which he cannot do?

'God created us with free will'

Except...He didn't. That was the whole incident with the tree of knowledge of good and evil(and the choice thereof.) I don't believe we were any less intelligent prior to that,(though I could be wrong) just that we were incapable of sin, in perfect innocence, like that of a child.

As far as the question itself, I believe that yes, He could, if He so chose.

a reply to: Diderot

I fancy that many advanced Alien cultures would be amused by our naivete.
A simple, clear fact, is that we are still stumbling in the dark.

Then why haven't any of those amused, advanced, alien cultures turned the
damn light on for us? In all their benevolent comings and goings over an
apparent millenia?

Simple answer: God creates a rock too heavy for himself to lift. He then increases his physical strength by will and proceeds to lift the rock. He has both made a rock he could not lift, AND lifted a rock he could not lift.

As for the unstopable force and unmovable object, they would merely phase through one another, or appear as if they were never lined up to collide at the last second.

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: taoistguy

Perhaps we should consult J.R.R. Tolkien!

that would be cool, he used hang out with C.S. Lewis.

you could get some interesting answers after a few pints, from them.

but from me, not so much.

although we could lift the hoover dam, just have to rearrange it a little.

The reason there is no answer to this paradox is because the paradox is flawed. Weight is mass times gravity. Gravity is determined by multiplying the mass of two objects divided by the distance squared times a gravitational constant. An object with maximum mass would contain every bit of matter in the universe. In other words, the singularity. But if you have the singularity, there is no where to move it so you can "lift" it. It also wouldn't have any weight since there wouldn't be gravity because there is no distance and there wouldn't be another object with mass that you could compare it too. Therefore the creation of such an object by a god would break the universe it existed in and if we assume that the god contains the universe within itself then creating such an object would potentially destroy god.

The problem with this paradox is that it asks if god can do earthly feats when the values you would need to obtain to accomplish this task exist on a universal or greater scale. It's like trying to ask if a square (a 2-d object) can support a cube (a 3-d object). It defies reality through a trick of the wording. Therefore I reason that it isn't a valid paradox because it violates the rules of the universe.

1 would imagine the CREATOR/GOD would design potential obstacles such as your OP in order to strengthen thyself for future activities...
And so would acknowledge the pre-set challenge as just that a challenge of the self to assess integrity & strength within the.

Here is my little attempt ,lol,

Is the first thought stronger / holds more weight than the second ? expansion ?

I too broke it down into three thoughts ,but it gets messy.

I wanted to ask ats members a question , if they had to chose between 2 boxes .

BOX I

BOX II

One of these boxes contains everything they want.
The other box nothing.
Which number would each member chose 1 or 2

I chose number 2 .

1%

Not sure if I am on the right track but maybe I should have put that second part in it's own thread.
Is it dual thinking or maybe tri thinking lol just mucking around guessing.

Can any imagine the challenge it would be to CREATE beings and them not even acknowledge you Created them. to 1 that is a major challenge that will increase patience and invoke deep thought as they are observed and evaluated behaving/thinking ignorantly.
But once they come along and the patience within THE has shown, perhaps it encourages more Creations as the recent stubborn rebellious doubters were understood and showed maturity-

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
Can any imagine the challenge it would be to CREATE beings and them not even acknowledge you Created them.

It would help if said creator would come down from time to time to tell his creations that he is there and yes he did create them.

to 1 that is a major challenge that will increase patience and invoke deep thought as they are observed and evaluated behaving/thinking ignorantly.

If I were to have a kid and put him up for adoption shortly after he is born because I couldn't take care of him, I would have to be a complete idiot to assume that this child when it grows up would have any idea of my existence. Heck unless his adoptive parents tell him otherwise, he would believe that they are his real parents. Same case here, if our (humans) denying of god is testing god's patience, then that is on him. You cannot expect acknowledgment if you refuse to even acknowledge your presence.

But once they come along and the patience within THE has shown, perhaps it encourages more Creations as the recent stubborn rebellious doubters were understood and showed maturity-

Or it shows that a neglectful father can still be loved by a neglected child.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Diderot

I fancy that many advanced Alien cultures would be amused by our naivete.
A simple, clear fact, is that we are still stumbling in the dark.

Then why haven't any of those amused, advanced, alien cultures turned the
damn light on for us? In all their benevolent comings and goings over an
apparent millenia?

the same reason you dont teach a dog how to make fire.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: Diderot

Ok...lets play. If God can make it SO heavy He/She/They/It/Them cant LIFT the rock? Then He could blow, wave, shove or "blink" it away.

wow. thats kind of boring, even for a comic book character.

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: taoistguy
Dear Lao Tse,

" 'god' does not simply walk into mordor."

If you perhaps say that God does not walk, then I agree.

Mordor, however, does not escape the reach of God.

Perhaps we should consult J.R.R. Tolkien!

in the case of mordor, tolkien IS god. he created mordor from his imagination and brought it to life with a pen.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The has sent many AVATARS in the past as well as GOD sends to teach many of the. The information is never good enough and is denied by SOME. Others sense the information or receive it and are doing ok...

So in essence the has not left any children alone and is more so awaiting maturity levels to rise before they will accept the...

Its like if the came down now there would be so many doubtful especially if the does not look human, can you imagine the many responses due to immaturity that would ensue?

Its like some want proof more then shared and yet have shown no proof of their conscious as well as spiritual maturity...

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The has sent many AVATARS in the past as well as GOD sends to teach many of the. The information is never good enough and is denied by SOME. Others sense the information or receive it and are doing ok...

I'm going to stop your preaching there. No, no extrauniversal being has come to this realm, let alone this planet to tell us it exists and created the universe. Such an event would be undeniable to everyone on the planet because the being (if it wanted to be known by all) should have the capability to make itself aware to all intelligent beings on the planet without any doubt left. This crap about, some people get it, some don't is just a cop-out to hand wave away the fact that some people just happen to be more spiritual than others. It doesn't mean what they believe is true.