Islam and quran says to go to war with non Muslims, will there ever be peace ?

originally posted by: ExperimentationTheory
a reply to: Xeven

How did people living in caves make things up that we never knew until the past century or so?

Fetuses and humans are an example.

I said people barely out of caves. Meaning people are following religions created by much less educated humans from our distant past when running water was a new invention.

a reply to: Spacespider

Whenever some body starts a 'post' with I'm not a racist.....

And the christian bible says something about "I come not to bring peace but the sword..." and all that rot.

Religious texts are largely symbolic unless you are a fundamentalist regardless of religion.

Muslims do not consider jews and christians infidels. They only consider those that believe in multiple gods infidel. (Well the christian trinity thing could be borderline and the graven images too) but christianity is considered monothestic.

a reply to: Spacespider


So let's start here, since that is where the other fellow from the other forum left off. He probably didn't have all day just like most of us don't have all day to explain religion to people who don't care anything for it but to propagate hatred of a people.

To be honest, I could care less if you hate me simply because I don't have the time. But there are more than just me in the world your trying to hate on so I will do my duty in part, and ask my brothers to pick up from here.

The Next quote was from Quran 3:85. Suratu Al Imran.

The translation I am using is from Shakir, as he gives a very accurate english translation without any addition.

Shakir: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

This is very self explanatory. However I will add the Pooya/Ali commentary of this verse as it is a very good basic english commentary.

Islam, the religion preached by the Holy Prophet is the religion of resignation-submission to the will, the service, and the command of Allah. It has been the religion of all prophets in all climes. Other so-called religions are deviations from it. No religion is acceptable with Allah save Islam, which consists in believing the unity of Allah (tawhid) and His justice (adl), and accepting the Holy Prophet as the last messenger of Allah and following his teachings, and, after him, following the guidance of his successors from among his Ahl ul Bayt, and believing in the final day of judgement. This path of Islam is the only path of salvation. The idea of individual choice in view of likes and dislikes of certain persons or their deeds and ideologies certainly leads to the path of deviation. Such people will be among the losers on the day of judgement.

Certainly that is no different than what Christians believe, or Jews concerning the acceptability before God of their chosen religion.

Next you have posted Quran 9:30. Which has been very badly mistranslated. The Shakir Translation is a good literal translation that does not add words that are not there.

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Notice while this verse is a condemnation to those who take gods beside God as equal to God, it doesn't say anything but may God destroy them. By the way, the "destruction" is not in this life.

That is much different than what you quoted below:

The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Qur'an 9:30

So, as you can see, no one called Jews or Christians sexual deviants and your translation is one of hatred, not of truth. As for "fight them, perhaps you refer to the verse immediately prior in Quran 9:29?

[Shakir 9:29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:29] Aqa Mahdi Puya says: According to this verse a disbeliever, or a polytheist, or an infidel (kafir) is he who (i) does not believe in Allah, nor in His oneness and unity, but associates other created beings as partners or co-equals with Him (ii) does not believe in the day of judgement (iii) does not follow what Allah and His Prophet have enjoined (iv) does not accept and submit to the true religion.

As the above noted negations are correlative and interrelated, one is the necessary consequence of the other. Apart from the corrupted and distorted beliefs of the people of the book (described in the succeeding verses) their denial and rejection of the true religion of Allah, Islam, is sufficient to put them in the category of disbelievers.

The Jews and the Christians are the people of the book, and according to the jurists of the school of Ahl ul Bayt Zoroastrians are also included in the people of the book, because in verse 17 of al Hajj they have been grouped with the Jews and the Christians, and the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali also treated them in the same manner as the Jews and the Christians were treated.

Allah enjoins upon the believers to fight against the disbelievers and the people of the book until they are subdued and agree to pay jizyah (the root meaning is compensation) with willing submission to live under the protection of Islam, enjoying personal liberty of conscience, free to profess and practice their own faith, not interfering with the preaching and progress of Islam. They were exempted from military service, therefore in effect jizyah was a nominal compensation paid by them in return for the protection of their property and lives for which the Islamic government was responsible .

It was a necessary step that had to be taken in view of the treacherous attitude of the Jews and the pagans who had been harassing and creating chaos all the time during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. When defeated they readily made pacts to avoid the consequences of the defeat, but always jumped at every opportunity to kill the Holy Prophet and the believers and destroy the progress of Islam by breaking promises and covenants and hatching secret schemes.

I bolded the last part of the commentary here, where he said it was a necessary step that had to be taken in view of the treacherous attitude of the Jews and the Pagans during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet.

Please note the Quran was revealed in stages, over a period of 23 years. Each verse was under different circumstances, and a different time. There were times of war, and times of peace, this verse is referring to ONE time of war, not to be taken as good from that second forward, but only until that time and that circumstance was over.

Now, for anyone who is truly interested in quran and commentary, this is a good site. Shakir is, in my opinion, the best English translation. I also think the pooya/ali commentary to be a good basic commentary and it is complete in english. This is the link I got all my verses and commentary from, its an easy to use site. quran.al-islam.org...

If anyone else wants to finish going down the list explaining feel free.

Tafsir Al Mizan is my very favorite exegesis of the Holy Quran. It is not complete yet in English, as this is more than a lifetimes work to translate it to English properly. But Sura 1-5 is complete, and some of the ending Surah's as well. You can also refer to some of what he has written as well, what has been translated at any rate. www.almizan.org... ......For arabic readers, since the OP claimed to read arabic, tafsir al-mizan in arabic www.holyquran.net...

a reply to: Spacespider

Funny how people like you fear Islam , yet it's the western countries who are doing all the bombings and killings. USA has caused more mayhem and deaths around the globe in the past century than any other Muslim country, yet somehow you see Islam as a threat to world peace ?

originally posted by: BlackNWhite
a reply to: Spacespider

Funny how people like you fear Islam , yet it's the western countries who are doing all the bombings and killings. USA has caused more mayhem and deaths around the globe in the past century than any other Muslim country, yet somehow you see Islam as a threat to world peace ?

Yes

originally posted by: ExperimentationTheory
a reply to: St Udio

A caliphate is completely different from what you've just posted.

A caliph is simply the "president" of a caliphate, which could be considered a type of government.

please read the link

it outlines just what the Caliph does & can do....

the Caliph is a combination Pope, President, Dictator, spiritual potentate, etc.

We will not see world peace in this lifetime. The killers still have much killing to do over their ideals and interpretations of what they THINK the people want.

Sadly...there are not enough of us wanting peace with any real ability to attain it.

Certain religious and other violent, intractable ideologies are a conundrum.

I'm certain if enough time, effort and love is employed, all humans could be changed into non-violent or even useful members of humanity.

The problem is resources and time... bullets, bombs and IV executions just saves a lot of time and effort... and perpetuates the cycles and cheapens life.

Though I have hope that more "education" and resources spread over the globe would be a nice first step. Wiping out huge swaths of unwanted populations begs the question of who you want deciding who is not wanted.

Going a tad more off topic, though this IS ATS, I have a hunch that certain "well intentioned" ideologues might have let HIV out into the world to be rid of the promiscuous and gay. I'm not saying that it's certain, or even likely, but HIV/AIDs and Lyme are two that make me go "hmmmm... ."

If there were certain things about Islam that could be used as a vector for microbes, then I wouldn't bet against an Islamic plague surfacing.

We will always have some growing to do... and until all people learn a little relativism and ego dampening, these violent instances will keep happening with disgusting regularity.

Religion isn't all bad, but it's a major trigger for violence and arguments... hardly something any loving creator would endorse.... imo of course.

a reply to: Spacespider
I'll be honest and say that I didn't bother to trudge though your post. But I will say that you are apparently asking us to condemn 3-4 billion human souls today as being unworthy of compassion and empathy. I do not live in your world.

Agreed, but we should leave politics at the door also. Those kinds of threads always turn in to a huge mess.


Peace.

a reply to: Spacespider

This thread is a disgrace and a lack of knowledge and understanding of the behalf of Islam. If people were to read what is written around the snippets you quoted, it would paint a completely different picture to what you are putting across. But you go ahead and do what you have to do, I'm going to sit here and laugh at your ridiculous analysis.

The Koran says....

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me.

My mistake that was in Luke 19:27 in the Christian bible.

If our desire is to find words to support our hatred, we will certainly find them. But if we want to end these wars we must turn our hatred into love. Its only love that can end the rule of satanical forces that aim to destroy all our religions and all our freedoms.

Our choice.

I keep trying to tell some hard headed people that the verses that refer to doing harm to Jews, Christians, or idolaters ARE A REAL TIME (1400 YEARS AGO) commandment FROM GABREIL to deal with the people who were persecuting the Muslims. AT FIRST THEY WERE TOLD TO TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. LATER THE MUSLIMS WERE GIVEN PERMISSION TO FIGHT BACK...THAT IS WHAT THOSE VERSUS REFLECT.

Also...If the Quran speaks that ONLY Muslims will go to paradise, well the question arises who is a Muslim.

A Muslim is defined by ones actions not any profession of faith, therefore a Jew, Christian, even atheists can be a Muslim since it only means “ one of peace who submits to God.

That is defined by DEEDS NOT WORDS.

But in fact the Quran DOESN'T say ONLY Muslims go to heaven

In one place the Quran says:

Righteousness is not whether you turn east or west but those who believe and do good.

In other words just because a man or woman professes to be a “Muslim” is meaningless if they don’t do good deeds.

The Quran IS NOT a sectarian book. “Muslims” will be judged according to their deeds not their faith. They WILL NOT have an edge over atheists, Jews, Christians or anyone.

The Quran was dictated to Muhammad by occult supernatural means by an Angel named Jibril or Gabriel. The word Quran means “the reciting”

It is a book of basically spiritual formulas and high mystical, scientific and karmik content.

Here are verses that clearly make absurd the idea that Muslims are commanded to kill Christians and Jews:


Surah 2:62

“Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.”

Surah 5:69

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.




Read the above
DOES GOOD"
DOES GOOD"
DOES GOOD"
In other words according to the Quran
ANYONE WHO DOES GOOD CAN GO TO HEAVEN!

The Quran does have some rough parts describing the reality of Hell for the evildoers.
As well some sweet descriptions of paradise for the doers of good.

IT DOESN’T SAY PARADISE ( ONLY) FOR MUSLIMS!

Surah Al – Ghashiyah, 88:1-16
1. Has there come unto thee the tiding of the Overshadowing Event?
2. Some faces will on that Day be downcast,
3. toiling (under burdens of sin), worn out (by fear),
4. about to enter a glowing fire,
5. given to drink from a boiling spring
6. No food for them save the bitterness of dry thorns,
7. which gives no strength and neither stills hunger.
8. (And) some faces will on that Day shine with bliss,
9. well-pleased with (the fruit of) their striving,
10. in a garden sublime,
11. wherein thou wilt hear no empty talk.
12. Countless springs will flow therein,
13. (and) there will be thrones (of happiness) raised high,
14. and goblets placed ready,
15and cushions ranged
16. and carpets spread out.....

Surah Al – Fajr, 89:21-30
21. Nay, but (how will you fare on Judgement Day,) when the earth is crushed with crushing upon crushing,
22. and (the majesty of) thy Sustainer stands revealed, as well as (the true nature of) the angels, rank upon rank?
23. And on that Day hell will be brought (within sight); on that Day man will remember (all that he did and failed to do): but what will that remembrance avail him?
24. He will say, “Oh, would that I had provided beforehand for my life (to come)!”
25. For, none can make suffer as He will make suffer (the sinners) on that Day,
26. and none can bind with bonds like His.
27. (But unto the righteous God will say,) “O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace!
28. return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased (and) pleasing (Him):
29. enter, then, together with My (other true) servants -
30. yea, enter thou My paradise!”

Surah Az – Zalzalah, 99:1-8
1. When the Earth quakes with her (last) mighty quaking,
2. and (when) the earth yields up her burdens,
3. and man cries out, “What has happened to her?”
4. on that Day will she recount all her tidings,
5. as thy Sustainer will have inspired her to do.
6. On that Day will all men come forward, cut off from one another, to be shown their (past) deeds.
7. And so, he who has done an atom’s weight of good, shall behold it;
8. and he who shall have done an atom’s weight of evil, shall behold it.

You don’t read anywhere any sectarian stuff...
That Muslims ONLY will be rewarded.

This is a powerful allegorical description of a fantastic cosmic event that, according to the Quran, will take place during the Last Days.

So you guys talking all this stuff really are distorting things through basically your ignorance.

It is a fact that some “Muslims” as well distort the Quran, and use it to abuse “non believers” and even “believers”

But I assure you, according to the Quran, this is waiting for those kinds:

5. given to drink from a boiling spring
6. No food for them save the bitterness of dry thorns,

Amin!

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Thank you for the source and taking the time to share it with us.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Thats kind of my thought as well and I why I universally dislike religion.

I guess its just easier to believe that its one sided?

Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed".

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 "They entered into the covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and soul; 13 and whoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman".

Deuteronomy 13:13-15 "that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town".

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death".

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 "If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death".

I could go on but the point is the same.

My professor introduced the premise that the Koran was simply a plagiarized version of the Bible with some extra crap thrown in there. I would tend to agree with him. Some of the passages, especially with regards to punishment and violence, are almost identical.

To answer the OP's question, will there be peace? So long as people follow religion, probably not.

ETA* To those who are parsing every word and trying to justify all types of ridiculousness in these religious texts, please stop. When will you guys admit that its all a sham. We're told that "God" is the greatest at everything. Somehow "He" missed the fact that humans are stupid and that any message "He" conveys should have been dumbed down and easy to understand?...

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Spacespider

No there will never be lasting true peace with them, there religion gives them the right to rape our woman, to kill our people and to say our land belong's to them.
But then it is a false religion made up by a former salesman who married a six year old girl then twisted by successive generations of his successors as it grew.

Is that opposed to a carpenter who was probably born out of wed-lock, said some revolutionary ideas and had a cult of personality develop around him causing people to mistake him for god on earth?

a reply to: Willtell

Masha Allah !

Willtell

Thank you for your efforts may Allah (god ) reward you!

It blows me away how "anti Islam indoctrinated" people have become .

Its mostly do to media..Islam is a very complicated religion and it takes YEARS to fully understand it.

But I have to remind my self often not to blame people who are not educated .....


Insha Allah (god willing)

The fear of Islam will pass for thoes who are in doubt.

Jazak Allah khair

Salaam Alikume !

a reply to: Spacespider

But I can not ignore the Islamic religion when their "bible" basically say everyone else not a Muslim is a infidel and should be killed, and any other religion is unacceptable and all Muslims should go to war with them... HOW will there ever be peace ??
And how can people accept this ??

Basically says?

Well yes for any ignorant fool that reads things out of context can conclude it says such, but does that make the ignorant fool more intelligent or expose their ignorance?

Ignorant people can accept falsehoods and be manipulated by falsehoods quite easily, just look around at whats going on over the globe in the last 30 years.

The extremists obviously interpret passages of the Koran as you do and make sure peace stays far away.

This is why we see very few “moderate” muslims coming out and speaking against the violence.

This is just the dumbest thing any human can spew from their mouths or a**.

How many moderate people speak out about any violence that doesn't effect them?

How do you speak up against any violence for the matter, is it through ATS where you can hide behind a screen or are you out there protesting the violence that plagues so many areas of our planet with your face shown and voice loud?

Pat Robertson has written a book on islam, Has anyone read this? Asking because I haven't read it and allegedly, it proves that islam is not a religion of peace