Ancient sources for rescued books from the Library of Alexandria

a reply to: pavil

Actually you have that backwards, they would keep the original and give back a copy they did that too to a number of other major libraries and collections also....or so the legend goes.

originally posted by: pavil
My understanding was that the Library confiscated all Scrolls/books coming into Alexandria and then proceed to Scribe them, ie make a copy, then give the original back.

That was the process, sort of.

Fact is, they gave back the copies and kept the originals in most cases. I mean, what were the owners gonna say? It wasn't called "Alexandria" for nothing.

EDIT: Sorry, Hans got there first.
Should've read both pages before responding.

Hans, you asked my opinion.

I'd say the story about Severus is false. It's a glorification.

Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

Thanks for finding that I would suspect it was religious writings he locked up probably Egyptian which could still be read at that time. Why would he have done what Cassius said he did? Unknown, however I have poised that question to those of greater intellect and knowledge than my own.

Perhaps Harte, Blackmarketeer or Skalla could comment?

This is one answer I got from Byrd a former poster and moderator on ATS

My suspicion (based on the Egyptian pharaohs) is that it's political myth-making rather than a real event. It establishes Severus has control and access to Egyptian secrets (or, perhaps, capital-S-"Secrets") and that Egypt gave up all its knowledge to him. The implication is also that he used magic from the books to hide the books and Alexander's body. NOW... this could be because he did not actually find the tomb. There's a report that it was looted by Caligula. It was certainly visited by Augustus. But by the time of Severus' visit, almost 200 years later, it may have been looted multiple times and moved and lost. But this has the sound of myth making. If you have a look at his activities during his African campaign, (en.wikipedia.org...) you will see that he didn't actually get down into Upper Egypt during his 6 years of military campaigns in the area (hence the idea that he looted all of the knowledge from Egypt is not possible.)

Indicating that, as usual, I'm right.

Harte

I've read the Vatican has 8 miles of ancient/secret information under the structure. Possibly the books from the Library of Alexandria are being kept there.... hhhmmmm..... 😞

originally posted by: soulsurvivor444
I've read the Vatican has 8 miles of ancient/secret information under the structure. Possibly the books from the Library of Alexandria are being kept there.... hhhmmmm..... 😞

Probably not, the French would have noticed in 1809 when they took the entire archive to Paris in three thousand boxes - but they gave it all back after the defeat of Napoleon.

originally posted by: soulsurvivor444
I've read the Vatican has 8 miles of ancient/secret information under the structure. Possibly the books from the Library of Alexandria are being kept there.... hhhmmmm..... 😞

Their oldest books are from the eight century, so no - unless they are lying about that too. Oh, and it's more than 50 miles of shelves down there.

Source

-MM

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

unless they are lying about that too.

And where is their present credibility? ??

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

unless they are lying about that too.

And where is their present credibility? ??

True, even though "selected scholars" are let into the Vatican Secret Library, they still need to know what they are looking for to get access to it. This is a strange way of making something public to me, and it is obvious that they are hiding something . otherwise they would have made the library completely open to the public.



-MM

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

unless they are lying about that too.

And where is their present credibility? ??

True, even though "selected scholars" are let into the Vatican Secret Library, they still need to know what they are looking for to get access to it. This is a strange way of making something public to me, and it is obvious that they are hiding something . otherwise they would have made the library completely open to the public.

It is if you below to an a credited organization. I got in for a look see in 84. Also anyone can request photocopying of their material.

So what are the hiding that the French didn't see?

originally posted by: Hanslune
So what are the hiding that the French didn't see?

Instructions on how not to immediately throw down arms and surrender?

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune
So what are the hiding that the French didn't see?

Instructions on how not to immediately throw down arms and surrender?

Harte

Now, now this was during the time when bravery and honour were the bread and butter of the French Grande Armee!

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

unless they are lying about that too.

And where is their present credibility? ??

True, even though "selected scholars" are let into the Vatican Secret Library, they still need to know what they are looking for to get access to it. This is a strange way of making something public to me, and it is obvious that they are hiding something . otherwise they would have made the library completely open to the public.

It is if you below to an a credited organization. I got in for a look see in 84. Also anyone can request photocopying of their material.

So what are the hiding that the French didn't see?

You must in fact know what books you want access to beforehand in the Vatican Secret Archives. Indexes must be consulted in the Secret Archive Index Room by the scholar herself and replaced in their original location, and publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden *1. The Secret Archives contains more than 50 miles of shelves stacked to the ceiling - so, you see, unless you know what you are looking for it is pretty much like finding the proverbial needle in the haystack - it's not like you will find something not knowing where it is located in the Secret Archive Index beforehand unless you know the title of the work in latin(?) etc.

People may confuce the Vatican Secret Archives with the Vatican Library; the entrance to the Secret Archives are adjacent to the Vatican Library.

This guy was not a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives but just in the Vatican Library in general, still an interesting story though:


Also, there are many archives inside the Vatican in addition to the Vatican Library and the Secret Archives. In fact, each depertment has its own archive, how easy it is to get research access to these I do not know.

[1]: Rules for Scholars

-MM

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

You just consult the indexes there.

'Indexes must be consulted in the Index Room and replaced in their original location'. So you pick your book out of the indexes.

...as compared to what? As the archives are closed for the period after 1939 they aren't going to let you rummage around if that is what you mean.

I think also you are mistaking what 'secret' means as I understand it means private ie the private papers of the Popes.

Most libraries keep their valuable books from open browsing. When I went to see the Paris Codex I went thru a great deal of security too.

Video tour of the secret archive

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

You just consult the indexes there.

'Indexes must be consulted in the Index Room and replaced in their original location'. So you pick your book out of the indexes.

...as compared to what? As the archives are closed for the period after 1939 they aren't going to let you rummage around if that is what you mean.

I think also you are mistaking what 'secret' means as I understand it means private ie the private papers of the Popes.

Most libraries keep their valuable books from open browsing. When I went to see the Paris Codex I went thru a great deal of security too.

Video tour of the secret archive

Did you not read what I wrote about the indexes to the Secret Vatican Archives being kept secret, and that even publishing part of the indexes are forbidden? If not even the indexes are made public what kind of openness is that?

-MM

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

Who burns books in the first place, and why? Defense? Ignorance? Intention? Or the least exposed reason, Secret Keeping.

The Library of Alexandria was open and widely known publicly. Yet it was destroyed. At the time the religious beliefs were public, common knowledge, and no central head, such as the Catholic church has today. Till one day a Roman Emperor, becomes Gods self appointed representative on earth, the Pope. And virtually overnight the world is given a new history to learn, "Christianity", and a old one to forget.

If the assault on the Catholic church continues I fear it wont be the ignorant masses to destroy the Vatican Vaults, but the church itself. And with it possible answers to what could have resided in the Library of Alexandria.

The only logical explanation to the Vaults being kept secret, is because of the secrets, it contains.

Just my 2 cents...

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

You just consult the indexes there.

'Indexes must be consulted in the Index Room and replaced in their original location'. So you pick your book out of the indexes.

...as compared to what? As the archives are closed for the period after 1939 they aren't going to let you rummage around if that is what you mean.

I think also you are mistaking what 'secret' means as I understand it means private ie the private papers of the Popes.

Most libraries keep their valuable books from open browsing. When I went to see the Paris Codex I went thru a great deal of security too.

Video tour of the secret archive

Did you not read what I wrote about the indexes to the Secret Vatican Archives being kept secret, and that even publishing part of the indexes are forbidden? If not even the indexes are made public what kind of openness is that?

-MM

You can read them (the indexes) in the Library and take notes from them - why would you think they would list their "secrets books" in an index available to any researcher?

Documents become available 75 years after the departure of the Pope they concern, or that is how I understand it.

If you believe that the Vatican Secret Archives has great secrets get a group of people together; raise a sum of money and bribe the Librarians, technicians or cleaning staff.

Simples

-------------------------------

Why do you feel the VSA has a need to provide unlimited access to the private files of the Pope before the 75 year standard?

originally posted by: Hanslune

Why do you feel the VSA has a need to provide unlimited access to the private files of the Pope before the 75 year standard?

Sounds to me like you think that anyone with the proper credentials can go into the Secret Archives and pick out any of the 35,000 documents contained therein - perhaps you are mixing your facts with the rules and regulations for the Vatican Library and not the Secret Archives? Anyone who wants to see a document from the Secret Archives must ask in advance, and thus, must know in advance if such a document even exists. The only four people on earth known to have access to the Archives are Cardinals Raffaele Farina (the Archivist, or Librarian), Jorge Maria Mejia and Luigi Poggi (Archivists Emeriti), and Prefect of the Secret Archives Sergio Pagano. The contents of the Secret Archive is considered the personal property of the pope.

-MM

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune

Why do you feel the VSA has a need to provide unlimited access to the private files of the Pope before the 75 year standard?

Sounds to me like you think that anyone with the proper credentials can go into the Secret Archives and pick out any of the 35,000 documents contained therein - perhaps you are mixing your facts with the rules and regulations for the Vatican Library and not the Secret Archives? Anyone who wants to see a document from the Secret Archives must ask in advance, and thus, must know in advance if such a document even exists. The only four people on earth known to have access to the Archives are Cardinals Raffaele Farina (the Archivist, or Librarian), Jorge Maria Mejia and Luigi Poggi (Archivists Emeriti), and Prefect of the Secret Archives Sergio Pagano. The contents of the Secret Archive is considered the personal property of the pope, and you must apply for access permissions to the Secret Archives from him directly.

-MM

Not at all VSA can be accessed by scholars - if the material is 75 year or older - you get access, look at the index and ask for what you want? or so the Vatican says .Do you think differently, if so why?

So you think those four guys regularly clean it? When you request a document who goes and gets it?

I suggest you look at the staff lists of Vatican which are on line to see how many people work there. You may be thinking of the off limits collection ie the stuff younger than 75 years but even then their will be a flunky to keep in order and keep the area clean.

a reply to: Hanslune

How can you make a request for a document that you don't know they have? And, since the indexes are not publically available, how can you know what documents they do have? You don't get access to the Index Room without having beforehand told them the document you want. It's like the Chicken & the Egg and which came first - but with documents. Let us say you are looking for The Gospel of Mani, if you don't know the index to the document (like the title) then you will get a reply from the Secret Archive that it don't exist, and you will not be let into the Index Room to browse for it. See how silly this is?

-MM