Isn't it more likely both sides are to blame for the MH117 crash?

It really bothers me to see so many people taking one side, or the other. I know there are some accounts on here that are obvious plants, and that disinformation is spread by the powers that be, online, and in the mass media. However, I thought ATS was better than that.

Why do we have shills for one side, or the other? Why do we have people who are obvious Russian robots, competing with obvious Western robots? How about we use our brains for a minute, and tap the most useful part of the human psyche...common sense.

Why were planes even allowed to fly over the war-torn area? This is the fault of Ukraine. They should have disallowed any, and ALL, air traffic out of mere courtesy to civilians, knowing full well that planes were being shot down in that area. We also have a plane in the area, supposedly, at the time of the shoot down? What was it doing there...bait? Investigating the civilian airliner? What?

We also have Russia to blame. Russia to blame for instigating partisan/insurgent (whatever you wanna call it) warfare in the Ukraine. Russia aided and abetted these soldiers, and has supplied them. Everyone knows they have these SAM sites set up. Russia even admitted they don't have any airpower there, so of course they would give the rebels anti-air. It's obvious, because Ukraine has said their own planes are getting shot down. And, they aren't getting shot down by shoulder mounted RPG's.

So, here is what I think. Ukraine set up the situation to happen, and Russia fell for it. Both are to blame. Both are to blame for the murder of nearly 300 people, 298 to be exact. Infants, children, men and women. It's an atrocity. Both should be ostracized from the global community, and sanctioned into oblivion.

It's disgusting, and makes me very angry when I think about these people who were going on holidays, or vacations, or to do some very important work in this world. And, slobbering degenerates destroyed their lives, for their own personal gain.

It's immoral, and what is even worse, is that the world doesn't even seem to care. NOTHING has been done, by any world leader. And that, is even worse. Letting evil get by with evil, is worse than the very evil itself. It's worse, because letting it go allows it to grow, and perpetuate.

Unconscionable.

a reply to: Catacomb

You're still taking a side but you're splitting hairs. As I explained in another thread Here, there are three major players. All of them have motive, opportunity and ability. There just isn't enough evidence to come down on any side or both sides or all three sides.

Cheers - Dave

because

"Everyone knows they have these SAM sites set up."

is

not

evidence...

when there is any evidence rebels are in possession of BUK systems or any other anti - aircraft system capable of shooting planes on such altitudes than you can start accusing them

I couldn't give a damn less about Ukraine or Russia to be honest. Two chumps trying to BS the world that left them in the dust in the 1980''s.

At this point there is no sense in trying to either blame this side or that side . This all started deep in the bowels of Washington and the Nuland phone conversation is the smoking gun . I blame the State dept for either being the ones that have cause this or for being so stupid as to not have fallen for such a crazy stupid thing to do . There are literal millions of innocent peoples killed over that District of Columbia .

a reply to: Catacomb

Thank you for this thread, it comes in good time to ask questions as it should be by truth seekers. THERE IS NO SIDES HERE!

This thread is a Thought provoker as it should be in respect to the memory of those 298 victims and furthers ones that could come from lies and disinformation from snakes!

I leave here some of the basic questions that should be answered in the following hours or days:

Where are the recordings from Kiev aerial traffic control?

why it's taking so long to listen to that recordings?

Aren't they essential to determinate the conversations between the pilot and control, before, during and after the change on the flight route to the conflict zone?

Why we immediately ear from Ukraine "secret services" the rebels conversation instead of Kiev Aerial Traffic control?

Why these kind of questions aren't asked on the media?

a reply to: Catacomb

Every effect has many causes. Still, if one person shoots another person in the head as he sleeps we tend to give the shooter most of the blame.

a reply to: Catacomb

OMG, not another Malaysian airliner crash!!!

First it was MH370 then MH17 and NOW MH117.

When will it end.

originally posted by: Psynic
a reply to: Catacomb

OMG, not another Malaysian airliner crash!!!

First it was MH370 then MH17 and NOW MH117.

When will it end.

This third plane had to have been shot down by Ukraine. I know this because shortly before it happened, monkeys flew out of my butt!

That's like a murder takes place by one person, and two different clans are blamed, but there is only one set of dna, one murderer, but unknown. (we're stretching this in todays world). And someone in the town goes, can't you just say both parties murdered the person.

Technically and morally, you can't. Only one person did it.

Same thing here. Someone did this, and they acted alone or under orders from higher echlens, in their country or internationally.

Yes, it's all America and Ukraine fault...both need to man up and tell us the truth.

There is only one person to blame, and that is the person who gave the order to fire. Period.

How can they both be responsible, did they both launch missiles that hit at the exact same time?

I really do not think there are near as many 'Russian or American shills/robots" here as people like to think.

I think it is simply the people of ATS (people with a higher critical thinking ability than most) are looking at the evidence being presented, and they are choosing sides and then getting passionate about it.

I can tell you one thing being an American. I will ALWAYS be more critical of my own nations actions and involvement in things such as this than I will be of other nations. I am a man and I can admit to this. But is that not normal?

When I feel my own government is lying to me - it really gets my blood boiling. It makes me sick to know my own nation could be responsible for such depraved acts. I live here. I like to think I live in a decent place. I do not want the world to view me as a bastard simply because of where I am from so you are DAMN right I will be critical of the shifty stuff my government does!


The fact of the matter is. It is up to citizens of the west to be critical of their government and work to out their lies and the stuff they hide from us. Just as it is up to the citizens of Russia to see through their own government's propaganda.



In my mind - the dumb ones go to any length to defend their own nations actions and immediately blame the other side. They are simply going with their own bias.

The smart ones will seize every opportunity to poke holes that they see in what they are being told by their own government. It's up to us to expose US involvement. It is up to Russian citizens to expose Russian involvement. It will not work the other way around as WAY too many people are brainwashed by the propaganda. The average person is brainwashed this day and age.

Those who are not feel outnumbered and we feel it is our duty to expose wrongdoings. I think that is the basic reason why you see so many one sided passionate arguments.


What always strikes me as funny is - Many an ATS member will complain that, "ATS is turning into RT #2, every other person on ATS is a Russian troll, yada yada yada."

In reality - I would love to see the numbers from the administration on the demographics of registered accounts. You know why? The amount of American accounts would absolutely dwarf the amount of Russia accounts. I think many people are unable to believe that their fellow countrymen would 'take the enemies side' when in reality - they are probably just smarter than you.


My two cents. Sorry for the rant.

Ask yourself why did the verdict on responsibility for the event come before the investigation????

How come, within a few hours, according to news reports in Australia, that 'its rumored that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian separatists using a former soviet 'x' weapon' Note they said it was only a rumor, but what has happened now? this rumor has grown into a verdict which has been rolled out all over the world.

A week or so later the black boxes have been recovered and "The INVESTIGATION is going to START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So now it doesn't matter how long the INVESTIGATION TAKES, the whole world (apart from some people) now believes the Russians are responsible. Who gains from this verdict that has been rolled out ???????????? Who rolled it out??????

Who gains from the world believing Russia brought down MA 17????????????????

How did they come to the view that MA17 was shot down by a Russian supplied weapon and therefore Russia is responsible??????

did they get air crash investigators to the scene within a couple of hours ??? how ???? from where ?????? were they hiding in the wings ???

Did they conduct forensic tests on the plane AT THE SCENE and determine from the forensic evidence that it was hit by the Russian weapon??? If they did, SHOW us the EVIDENCE NOW. How could they conduct forensic evidence tests on the scene in such short time and make such pronouncements.??

When I watch air cash investigators on TV they take a long time to reach a conclusion but in the Eastern Ukraine they got it all done, it would seem, within a few hours HOW COULD THAT BE ??????????????????????????????????

I could go on but think for your self. You can see they have no evidence at all . It is only ACCUSATION and accusation is not evidence.

In believing what we have been told by our western governments we are being CIA assets, i.e, useful idiots in other words.

I hope passengers on planes start to revolt in the cabin if they discover the airline they are flying is over Ukraine.

Easy to check with GPS and a mobile/tablet and a lot of long haul flights have inflight internet and screen map.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
How can they both be responsible, did they both launch missiles that hit at the exact same time?

exactly!

it is only one side that was able to launch missile that could take down that plane.

and it is Ukrainian army.

so I must agree; both sides cannot be responsible...

originally posted by: Catacomb

Why do we have shills for one side, or the other? Why do we have people who are obvious Russian robots, competing with obvious Western robots? How about we use our brains for a minute, and tap the most useful part of the human psyche...common sense.

Whats even scarier are those on either side who think their supposed "News" source * RT, CNN, FOX, BBC etc* are the only ones that are truly trust worthy sources.

I agree in that if these two chowder heads weren't so busy having a pissing contest over territory the plane would have landed safely at their original destination.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

For me if we find that Ukrainians had planned this, i.e., divert flight path to conflict zone, adding some military aircraft to the scene, they became more guilty then the guys who fired the missile, because of premeditation criteria.

I'm not excusing the guy's who shoot down the plain, they are guilty for that also, but that was a conflict zone where plains were being shot down and the Ukrainian government know that all along.

Don't forget this little tweet of premeditation (lets find who was responsible for it)
twitter.com...

"Soon will be shot down over the ruins of the liner packed full of innocent euro-tourists. Tse will be the occasion for the official invitation to NATO. So I see."

originally posted by: Catacomb
Why were planes even allowed to fly over the war-torn area?

At 33,000 feet they were in the commercial airlanes and were supposed to be outside of the military strike zone. There was no mistaking a civilian airline being at that altitude and on that route.

Isn't it more likely both sides are to blame for the MH117 crash?

No. Isn't it more likely that whoever pulled the trigger is to blame and that he's a moron?