As Christians do we have to obey, without question?

a reply to: addygrace

People are reading way too much into this passage. This scripture has nothing to do with governmental authority. Think about this for a second. If Paul was writing and teaching that people should be submissive to the government (Caesar), then why would Caesar behead Paul? If Paul's message was to submit to Caesar, then Caesar should have befriended him and let him continue his message of submission to the government.

The governing authorities that the scripture references, which were established by God, were the governing authorities of the church. That's the authority it's claiming we should adhere to.

The second verse, "2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.", means that the authority that is wrong to rebel against, is the church's authority. This is because that was what God had set in place.

That said, it leaves this question; How do you know that God established any certain authority and that it's authentic. Well, contrary to the misunderstood scripture, the Bible commands that we are to question everything.

1st John 4:1-3 (KJV)

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It was by that verse we are to test what's false or positive.


TL;DR The scripture here doesn't mean government. It means the church's authority.

a reply to: ketsuko

If the government is composed of men, then you owe them nothing but love.

Does that mean If banks are composed of men, I owe them nothing but love????

I personally don't believe that Paul or his travelling partner Luke were one with God so I ignore anything attributed to them (Romans etc). But if I believed that Bible was the true word of God I'd also have to believe that the rule of Government was Gods law.

a reply to: addygrace

How does a person allow such an insane culture(any one you pick) to tell them how to assess their own value or put boundaries on what is possible or impossible?

I am soooo glad i finally broke free even though it was unpleasant at the time. Always investigate what your interested in, or become a person who would rather die with friends than truly serve God alone.

If you don't follow the word of Christ, you're not a Christian. Simple as that. You can try to weasel out of it, or do your own funky interpretation of the Gospel, of course. Then you're a hypocrite. So either do what Christ clearly says, or GTFO. And that includes:

Obeying the word of Jesus unquestioning as if you were a child.
Getting rid of all your possessions and breaking all ties with your family.
Accepting that the only way to Heaven is through him.
Becoming a sorcerer and necomancer as his Apostles did.
Obey civil law since it is only temporary anyway.

If you're not doing all of these things to the letter, then just call yourself something else and stop pretending to be a Christian. Because you are the lukewarm water he will spew from is mouth.

originally posted by: Cynic
No way. The more I look at religion in general, I am glad I gave it up.

It dosent matter if you give up religion. You are still governed by a government.

It really dosent matter what faith you have either. Within Our society you can only practice religion within the comon Law anyway.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: ketsuko

But if I believed that Bible was the true word of God I'd also have to believe that the rule of Government was Gods law.

No you wouldn't because that's not what it says.

originally posted by: CB328
Except that TPTB are mainly Christians?

I hereby nominate you to receive the Charlie Brown award for gullibility.

FYI, there is no Episco-Molechian denomination...

a reply to: EternalSolace

First God appointed the Judges to rule over Isreal but Isreal eventually wanted something else.. They wanted kings! So well God didn't like the idea but he gave them their kings!
So yes God did appoint earthly rulers.
The kings ruled a large part of the world with practically absolute authority which they did claim came from god up till the past two or three hundred years when man got sick of the kings and rebelled. Democracy came into the picture and well American christians will tell you that American was ordained to be the model!
By the people and for the people!!
That was what the people wanted and that was what they were given!
???? Maybe we should try anarchy next???

originally posted by: txinfidel
a reply to: addygrace

Read the king james version, romans thirteen does not read like that at all.

So which of the many versions/translations is the "real" bible?

The inconsistencies between versions makes interpereting passages such as the one(s) included in the OP next to impossible.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: ketsuko

If the government is composed of men, then you owe them nothing but love.

Does that mean If banks are composed of men, I owe them nothing but love????

I personally don't believe that Paul or his travelling partner Luke were one with God so I ignore anything attributed to them (Romans etc). But if I believed that Bible was the true word of God I'd also have to believe that the rule of Government was Gods law.

Love they neighbor as thyself.

Think about how you love yourself. Do you love everything about yourself, and when you love, does that mean you always treat everyone gently? How does a parent love? Think about the concept of tough love. Sometimes, the most loving thing you can do is to turn your back on someone ... or something. Sometimes, discipline is love because it is necessary and letting a child run wild and out of control is not being a loving parent.

Love is much bigger thing and far more complicated concept than all the happy, happy sunshine and rainbows and fluffy bunnies and kittens people make it out to be.

Daniel didn't get thrown into the Lions Den for obeying the law.
Jesus did healing miracles on the Sabbath which violated existing religious laws.
I don't believe the OP has much Biblical knowledge.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Daniel didn't get thrown into the Lions Den for obeying the law.
Jesus did healing miracles on the Sabbath which violated existing religious laws.
I don't believe the OP has much Biblical knowledge.

As far as not having much biblical knowledge, you are right. However, I'm saying the same thing you are. I think using Romans 13 to keep the Church in line with all government, is contrary to the Bible. There are many instances where Biblical characters rebel against government.

a reply to: ChaosComplex

So which of the many versions/translations is the "real" bible?

The inconsistencies between versions makes interpereting passages such as the one(s) included in the OP next to impossible.

The further you go back the better. This was warned about in the Bible itself.

Furthermore, if you are more interested the OTO has manipulated both the Koran and the Bible to make them go to war with one another. They consider both religions to be inferior.

originally posted by: txinfidel
The further you go back the better. This was warned about in the Bible itself.

Furthermore, if you are more interested the OTO has manipulated both the Koran and the Bible to make them go to war with one another. They consider both religions to be inferior.

This is a part of my "rule of thumb" when studying religious texts.

What's the OTO? Are you referring to the Ordo Templi Orientis?

a reply to: addygrace

I think as Christians we should definitely want to
obey.

a reply to: ChaosComplex

yes sir

originally posted by: addygrace

Many Christians will read this and claim government, no matter the laws and regulations, have ultimate authority.

Not all Christians.

I suppose heresy is against the religious laws and is disobedience to religious authoritites in the time of Jesus. This makes Jesus and His disciples a law-breaker because he preached teachings that were considered heretic.

The religious laws of the Jews were as good as formal laws because even the Roman Empire recognized their authority and influence and allowed them to exercise full jurisdiction dealing with Jesus with impunity.


Summing up:

1. Jesus disobeyed the authorities when the result is for the greater good (Performed miracles on Sabbath)

2. Jesus allowed them to kill him because it is for the greater good (God's Will) and for the good of His disciples.


Our world is ruled by evil (1 John 5:19) So you cannot possibly comply to everything it says without being complicit with evil.

a reply to: addygrace
This is because of lack of knowledge about God. God only appoints someone and gives authority to someone who is far from sins and he is the most knowledgeable of humanity.

originally posted by: maes2
a reply to: addygrace
This is because of lack of knowledge about God. God only appoints someone and gives authority to someone who is far from sins and he is the most knowledgeable of humanity.

Are saying every leader of any country is far from sin?

originally posted by: johndeere2020
Are saying every leader of any country is far from sin?

I think this thread is about authorities whom are appointed by God. Humanity is immature and ignorant enough that he does not accept the candidates of God. Humanity thinks he can manage this world. Humanity thinks he knows a lot. When humanity gets disappointed from man made new world order, The true divine world order will emerge. What it is promised in all religions from Judaism to Hinduism and ..........
I am saying Jesus and Mahdi are far from sins and they are the most knowledgeable of humanity and they are candidates of God. Utopia establishes when humanity returns to candidates of God and obeys them.