Divine Inspiration

a reply to: charles1952

We're talking divine inspiration here...

So lets hope you're inspired!

Goodnight

originally posted by: charles1952
This is not intended as an insult, but I think I like you. Several other people have been informed of that fact and, as far as I know, they have not been stricken with bad breath, psoriasis, or a decline in virility.

So far so good.

Let's see what we can make of all this confusion.

It seems as though one of the important areas you address is sin. Things like Easter Bunnies and Santa Claus. I have more belief in Santa Claus than the Easter Bunny, because Santa is based in history. But for me, someone sins if they have a well-formed and instructed conscience, realize that their action is sinful, and do it anyway with complete freedom to choose another path.

But even that doesn't make you a non-Christian, repentance is always possible, unto the last breath.

I would also add that there are those who still don't see it as an issue but that's really between them and God. It's frustrating to see perpetuated by a group of people who can get all fire and brimstone when it comes to other people though. I realize not all Christians are like this ofc. Haha nor am I a scrooge! I love Christmas and see nothing wrong with it. Another thing too. I can't recall where in the Bible it says this but Jesus rejoices when people hear his name regardless of how they hear it. Regardless of their roots that would include Christmas and Easter.

Was the Bible divinely inspired? I believe so, others don't. Maybe you're on the fence. Tell me how it would affect your life if you believed they weren't divinely inspired. Would you find a non-Christian religion? Believe however you wanted to believe (basically making up your own religion)?

Ultimately, if I was honest with myself I'd say I'm on the fence leaning towards having an open mind. I believe there is a 'spiritual realm' or more dimensions than we experience where the things we've attributed to (or are) God, gods, angels, demons, UFOs (the "ET" ones. I'm of the ID persuasion) etc. "live" or what-have-you. Kind of getting into quantum mechanic theories and such. I try to think about how everything fits together, and it can get confusing!

Has the Bible been used or abused? Probably, at one point or another. But do you see what your question necessarily means? It means that there is a way to use the Bible properly. That's important. As long as we are men, we'll screw things up. Even interpretations of the Bible. But the Church is there to say, "Wait a minute, that's a heresy." And if they don't catch it right away, it's caught down the road of time somewhere. Our job, and the job of any Christian religion, is to use the Bible and the thoughts of wise men to guide us to eternity with God.

Well from my perspective a lot of the churches are involved or directing the heresy.

I'm a little confused with the idea of a "one world religion." Of course, every religion and denomination would like to convert everybody. I can't see that as bad. But if the State creates a religion and brings everybody into forced agreement with it, that would be catastrophic. One hope I have is that the Catholic Church seems to be the one religion that is giving the US government and society a hard time. I like that.

There are some really interesting CT involving the Catholic church, Christian church, and their heresies. And how they tie into Revelation and end times prophecy. Pretty compelling stuff imo. It's been awhile since I followed up on them. If you're interested you can check out Dr. Scott Johnson, that's where I heard them.

Many Catholics don't follow the Church's teachings, but is the fault in the teachings, or in those who don't follow them.

In my opinion it would be the teachings. For example, raising Mary up to a divine, sinless status and claiming she can hear and answer prayers.

Anyway, I really enjoyed your post. I don't think anyone sees you as a jerk, I certainly don't.

With respect,
Charles1952

Likewise!

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Maigret

you do realise people have been saying "these are the end times" for 2000 years right...

No... these are not the end times... Don't believe the hype

And no God is not silent, HE speaks to you, and everyone else every day... but most don't hear him

Yes, Arkragon... even the Bible agrees with you.

1Co_14:22 Languages that others don't know may mean something to unbelievers, but not to the Lord's followers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is for followers, not for unbelievers...

a reply to: Maigret

Followers of Paul perhaps...

maybe followers of your local preacher...

And try to get the name right... thanks

a reply to: Akragon

Sorry about getting your name wrong, Akragon - apologies.

*L* I'm an original, Akragon. I do not follow Paul or preachers, as within the next ten years, you will see for yourself!

a reply to: Akragon

Dear Akragon,

I'm glad that I've had the chance to talk with you in the past. You have trained me to take things one at a time, in small bites, and to watch out for unwarranted assumptions.

You've left me with what else is needed besides the Gospels. Well, taking this in small bites, needed for what? If it's needed for moral teaching, I don't think you even need the Gospels for that. Jesus' moral teachings aren't that different from what everybody had been describing, from just about forever.

Needed to provide sufficient evidence that belief in God, Jesus, and the Spirit can be held rationally and reasonably?

Needed to provide a path to Heaven for those who believe?

I had another thought. It would seem (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Gospels would be worthless if one didn't believe they were true. Does that mean believing in the Virgin Birth, many miracles, death and Resurrection? Ascension, and so on?

Oh, and yet another thought. If we accept and use the Gospel of Luke, why not add Acts? Acts is not only accepted to be written by the Luke of the Gospel, but also to be a continuation of the Gospel (without being declared a Gospel). Same question for the writer of John's Gospel, who is supposed to be the same person as the John who wrote Revelation.

I think I'd enjoy some comment so that I know what foundation we're building on. I'm looking forward to working with you to construct a Tower of Truth.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: Maigret

as within the next ten years, you will see for yourself!

Just out of curiosity, what makes you say 10 years.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Dear WakeUpBeer,

Very nice post, and one with which I can find a lot of agreement. Naturally, no two people think exactly the same, so there are a few areas I'm less comfortable with. I went to Dr. Johnson's site, as you suggested, and looked at "True Salvation."

There wasn't much I could disagree strongly with in his section, except, perhaps for Sections IV and XI. Section IV has this headline:

If you want to know how to get saved, you MUST hear the truth about what God did to save you! The Bible says that Jesus (God the Son) was crucified, and He bore the sins of the world upon the cross

Consider also his headline to Section XI

Now we can answer the question: Where will I go when I die? There are only two possibilities: The Bible says that once you are saved, you also receive the gift of eternal life. This means that you will go to heaven when you die. You might have asked, can a saved person die and go to hell? The Bible says the answer to that question is NO, he cannot.

I don't see any alternative to the idea that Dr. Johnson believes that a child not old enough to understand the Bible's message, or a person living in an area that doesn't have the Bible, has to go to eternal Hell. This does not seem to allow for God to be either Just or Merciful.

The Catholic Church allows for both of those possibilities, but also says that no man-made rule can stand against God's Mercy. In fact, one of the Church's feast days is in honor of the Holy Innocents. Remember how King Herod killed all the men children under age 4 to make sure he got rid of Jesus? Those children are considered by the Church to have given their lives to protect Jesus. They are seen as the first Martyrs and have been recognized as being in Heaven, something Dr. Johnson's beliefs would not allow.

Dr. Johnson supports, as many Protestants do, the concept of "Once saved, always saved." You're probably aware of some of the arguments against it. In one of his sections, Dr. Johnson says:

This does not mean that a Christian will never sin. It simply means that he will strive against sin and will be able to overcome temptation through Christ because, as a born-again Christian washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, he is no longer in bondage to sin.

I honestly hope this leaves you perplexed. So, a born-again Christian will sin. What happens on account of that sin? Dr. Johnson seems to be saying that nothing will happen, somehow that sin will be erased before death. If it's not erased before death, will a sinner be able to enter into Heaven in a sinful and unholy condition? My guess is "No way, Jose." (Unless that's racist, then forget I said it.)

I also looked at his website, searching for the word "Catholic." Let me be gentle. The Catholic Church condemns as a serious sin, the worshiping of bones and skulls and the Saint of Death. I'm sorry that you haven't had a chance to look into this, but it's just not true. From the Catechism:

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.” Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast”refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

As far as worshiping Mary? Same thing for the same reason. We don't see her as divine, nor do we worship her.

We believe that Mary isn't the only one who can hear us:

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Anyway, I hope this is a start.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Posted this in another thread but amidst the on going discussion there it was ignored or missed (except by Akragon). I decided these questions deserved a thread of their own.

The books in the Bible are supposed to have been divinely inspired by God. Likewise, the council that decided what was in, and what was out, were supposed to have been divinely inspired by God. Books that didn't make it into the cannon are largely considered to be false doctrines, or the work of fallen angels trying to lead man astray.

1) What proves the books in the Bible were divinely inspired?
2) What proves the Bible itself was divinely inspired?
3) Why aren't some of the things coming out of the Catholic church, and other denominations, considered divinely inspired? (e.g. the Pope saying he would baptize extraterrestrials)

My personal belief, at least when it comes to Catholicism, is that any truth that may be found in old scriptures and texts was twisted hundreds and hundreds of years ago, by them, for purposes of control. Lies told over and over again for hundreds of years, and it stuck. From Catholicism eventually sprang all the other Christian denominations, and here we are today.

Here are some examples of things in the past that were accepted to be Gods divine will.

1) Monarchs right to rule (we certainly don't feel our leaders were appointed by God today).
2) Indulgences. There was a day when God allowed you to pay a fine for your sins!
3) Pagan traditions combined with Christian tradition. Bam! Saturnalia becomes Christmas and Ishtar becomes the Easter Bunny.

So, again. How can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt the Bible was divinely inspired?

Your objection and often stated, religion, this time specifically the Faith, Catholicism does things "for purposes of control" is weak friend, no offense. No one controls you, you do not believe in the Faith. Here is why. God gave you free will.

God's grace is working on you, I can tell.

I like your thread subject...


GBY,

Important to realize...

"Jesus said: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, you house is forsaken and desolate!"

Jesus here speaks as God and informs us that he is ever-calling to his people by his grace to come to him as a hen calls to her chicks. But he is equally clear that he respects the freedom with which he gifted them as well. It is their choice whether they will to resist his call–resist his grace–or cooperate with it unto salvation (cf. Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 5:1-2)." Tim Staples, Catholic Apologist, former evangelical minister


Free will is always involved, God wants our love to be true.

a reply to: Akragon

what else is needed aside from the gospels?

They aren't technically gospels you know, right?
A gospel would be what Paul preached.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

If a person works the biggest questions like a logic problem they will have plenty of material to find the truth, but it takes a while.
I knew the bible held some truth because the teachings of Jesus were so radical compared to everything else i saw around me, and it takes a lot of different cultural and scientific references to see a big cohesive picture.

a reply to: charles1952

ye know... I had a certain train of thought when I wrote that...

Now I lost it... hmmm

Perhaps it will come back to me

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

what else is needed aside from the gospels?

They aren't technically gospels you know, right?
A gospel would be what Paul preached.

Im not following...

gospel means "the good news"... whats better then what Jesus said?

Surely Paul isn't the answer

You can always take the Bible and other religious literary works and find flaws in them if you are reading expecting to find them with flaws.

However, if you read these words in a meditative, prayerful way then alot of wisdom reveals itself to you.

I've found this to be true with the Bible, Koran, Lost Gospels, Jesus, Buddha teachings, etc.

I think the problems start when people get hell bent on forcing others to adopt their views and interpretations as the "correct" one.

a reply to: Akragon

Im not following...

gospel means "the good news"... whats better then what Jesus said?

It is like a history and in it, it records the fact that he preached the gospel, it isn't the gospel itself.

Surely Paul isn't the answer

I was giving that as an example of what technically a gospel is.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Inspired does not mean ghost written. Verbal plenary inspiration is what most people are talking about when they say the bible is inspired.

I'll give you a great example of inspired, which literally is 'God Breathed'. Adam. God breathed into the clay man and he came to life. This is our model for what inspired is. Adam was not perfect, as some say, or he could not have eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And so the bible is inspired. As in the writers were inspired by God, moved yes, overtaken, no. There are mistakes, personal opinions, and mutually exclusive statements (contradictions especially of God's character). That is what happens when man translates from Spirit to Mind, and from Mind to Paper.

What is the purpose of the bible? Not to be a perfect manual for us to follow as most christian would teach. It is to point to Christ.

The problem comes in our self striving to scientifically dissect and apply a spiritual document (collection of documents) as if it were a scientific manual. That is why Paul said "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life".

There is no life from trying to prove a literal 7 day creation. Or a literal 7 bowls, 7 trumpets etc. These are all symbolic, opened by the Spirit and brought to life. The chaff of the dead letter must fall off, for the seed of life to be born (in you as you are inspired by the Holy Spirit,and the words bring life in you).

a reply to: charles1952

Thanks for another perspective on the zealous Dr. and Catholicism.

Good to know stuff.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Have you read the bible? It is mostly a historical book. I am not talking about what those lame people tell you. I am speaking from a person who has read every page of the bible. It was meant to be a purely historical account to be keep in history.

Now when you speak of divine, why is a prayer not divine? When you are talking to God it is considered divine, that is just the way that people came to know it as. It just so happens that the people of the day 3,000 years ago were an expressive people. The ancients were extremely poetic. Much of the bible is an account of somebody's prayer or an account of someone's dream because the ancients considered dreams as divine also.

Some researchers have theorized that the location of the solar system around the galaxy and position of the earth every so many 1,000 years brings the mind of man to be more open. So it is interesting that the ancients going as far back as we know had very clear dreams that they were able to see prophecies from them.

So the belief really is how much do you think a human can take it? I think it can go very far since we use so little of our mind, that is proven in science, so if we used more at one time the dreams could fulfill into prophecies.

That is the Old Testament, the New Testament was written by men who are claiming to us about Jesus, some believe and some don't believe them, I believe them. Also if one studies the bible and takes it word for word they are absolute idiots because the ancients always wrote is very poetic terms in that they would say one thing and it would mean another.