Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: rustyclutch

Its your choice of what your action is.

If you fail to identify your target and it turns out to be civilian, its the fault of the person who failed to identify before shooting at it, and not that of the pilot flying in a civilian aircraft at a level established by the gvoernment to be safe for civilian aircraft.

A fact that was made known to ALL parties, inside and outside of Ukraine. If the rebels are going to try and act like they are something, then they need to act in a professional manner and not shoot at an aircraft that, by its very flight level, identifies it as civilian.

Have you wondered why Ukraine military aircraft were not flying at those levels when they were shot down?

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: Xcathdra

instead of attacking the facts.

What facts? Did I miss something and there has been information leaked that it was Russia or pro-Russian forces to blame?

Yes you apparently missed the 2 phone call intercepts where 2 rebel commanders talking to each other stated their unit shot it down, and a call from a rebel commander to Russian militarily intelligence talking about the shoot down.

It also doesn't help when the pro Russians turn the black box over to a country who has no authority to investigate the incident.

originally posted by: Ironclad2000

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Yeah, why not..

According to some reports on intercepted radio and phone communications in the area, they knew exactly what they were shooting at before they even pulled the trigger, then applauded and cheered as it came down..

That in my opinion makes them terrorists. And if they are Russian or Pro-Russian forces, that makes Russia accountable...

'according to SOME reports on intercepted radio and phone communications'.
Just another assumption, with no proof.

By the way, what would you call those who have been shelling and using even GRAD on civilians for a last 3 months on daily basis? Throughout Donetsk and Lugansk region, destroying residential buildings, schools, killing hundreds of civilians?

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Not at all.. But again props for attacking the poster instead of attacking the facts.

I would expect you to defend the Pro russians by stating they didnt shoot the plane down. Since you cant state that as fact, you come at me.

It gets old.. move on and grow up please.

I just find it amusing to use that term. It shows weakness.

The same weakness in referring to all Ukrainians as Nazis? Or referring to the Ukraine government as a Junta.

You are the last person who should lecture people on weakness for terminology used.

The Obama administration believes Ukraine did not have the capability in the region -- let alone the motivation -- to shoot down the plane, a U.S. official told CNN's Jake Tapper.

CNN

a reply to: cosmonova

Good question...

What would you call Pro Russians who are refusing to allow civilians to leave those cities in order to run up the body count for propaganda reasons?

If it were the middle east I guess we call them Hamas.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: rustyclutch

Its your choice of what your action is.

If you fail to identify your target and it turns out to be civilian, its the fault of the person who failed to identify before shooting at it, and not that of the pilot flying in a civilian aircraft at a level established by the gvoernment to be safe for civilian aircraft.

A fact that was made known to ALL parties, inside and outside of Ukraine. If the rebels are going to try and act like they are something, then they need to act in a professional manner and not shoot at an aircraft that, by its very flight level, identifies it as civilian.

Have you wondered why Ukraine military aircraft were not flying at those levels when they were shot down?

you are ignoring the big IF in my theory. IF there were 2 fighter planes accompanying the aircraft, then they are the ones that made that plane look like a bomber or transport plane and not a civilian aircraft. THAT is the point of my whole theory. Deception. I'm not saying they weren't in the wrong. Killing is wrong period.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Ironclad2000

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Yeah, why not..

According to some reports on intercepted radio and phone communications in the area, they knew exactly what they were shooting at before they even pulled the trigger, then applauded and cheered as it came down..

That in my opinion makes them terrorists. And if they are Russian or Pro-Russian forces, that makes Russia accountable...

By the way, what would you call those who have been shelling and using even GRAD on civilians for a last 3 months on daily basis? Throughout Donetsk and Lugansk region, destroying residential buildings, schools, killing hundreds of civilians?

..A red herring argument.

I do find the "youtube video" and "intercepted" phone calls a bit too convenient - what evidence is there to support who the people speaking actually are? We've seen and heard staged "recordings" many times in the past. What'll be interesting is some hard evidence such as satellite imaging etc. of the events and the downing of the plane. Having said that, if satellites are able to retrace and pick up the events quite clearly, it'll further bring into question why the efforts to identify what happened to MH370 were so lacking.

The European equivalent of the FAA is now prohibiting flying over the Eastern Ukraine, at any altitude.

Before this, the Ukrainian government said planes could not fly at 32,000 feet or lower. MH17 was at 33,000 feet, so it was still "ok".

European flight safety body Eurocontrol says Ukrainian authorities have closed the airspace in the east of the country to all airline flights.

Not sure if it's been posted yet, I can't search 53 pages.


"Also very interesting is their post[1] which they promptly deleted, made about 30 minutes before the news about MH17 started to spread:"


www.reddit.com...

So they basically said they shot it down 30 minutes before news spread, then deleted it once word came out it was a civilian plane.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Not at all.. But again props for attacking the poster instead of attacking the facts.

I would expect you to defend the Pro russians by stating they didnt shoot the plane down. Since you cant state that as fact, you come at me.

It gets old.. move on and grow up please.

I just find it amusing to use that term. It shows weakness.

The same weakness in referring to all Ukrainians as Nazis? Or referring to the Ukraine government as a Junta.

You are the last person who should lecture people on weakness for terminology used.

talking nonsense again?
Post here right now the link of me calling all Ukrainians Nazis.
Your obsession with Russia and Putin is doing a serious damage to your mental health.

This is just freaky, maybe coincidental but sad and strange. The photo is of the plane just before take-off.
"Passenger on doomed flight MH17 'joked about the flight disappearing'. Dutch man posted picture of plane before boarding 'in case it disappeared'

Photo of flight MH17 is believed to have been posted by Dutch passenger
Cor Pan is thought to have been on the plane with girlfriend Neeltje Tol
Caption on the photo reads 'If it disappears, this is what it looks like'
Thought to reference Malaysian Airlines flight 370 which disappeared"


Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... .html

a reply to: Xcathdra

I've heard about the phone interceptions, but have not heard them myself and will not take the media's word for it. I'd like to hear those recordings.

And from what I understand there has been no conformation of the BB being turned over to Russia. In fact, most sources I've read on that topic admits it's only rumor. Unless evidence is provided to confirm that...it's nothing more than rumor.

If you have some links to confirm all of that, please share. Otherwise, I will reserve judgment till such evidence is provided....as any logical person should.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

Most likely this was a Russian missile. I hope to god not.

Russian built for sure. Russian owned and operated, probably not.

Partial transcript of alleged intercepted phone calls in which pro-Russian separatists admit shooting the plane down:

One of the three alleged phone calls was made 20 minutes after the plane crash by Igor Bezler, a pro-Russian separatist and rebel commander. The security agency said he called his “coordinator” Vasyl Mykolaiovych Geranin, who the SBU claims is a colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the GRU, Russia’s military intelligence apparatus.“We have just shot down a plane. That was miner’s group. It fell down outside Yenakievo,” Bezler allegedly told Geranin. “The plane broke into pieces in the air, close to Petropavlovskaya mine. There is the first two-hundreth (sic) dead, we have found the first two–hundredth (sic). It’s a civilian.” The second conversation was apparently between pro-Russia militants named “Major” and “Greek,” confirming that it was a Malaysia Airlines Plane. The third is between Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin and an unnamed militant. Kozitsin believes a plane flying over Eastern Ukraine  "means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on."

Link

Audio available at link via Youtube. Maybe someone can imbed, I'm on mobile. This like every major news item is fast moving and fluid. I'm making no claims as to the validity of the phone calls, just adding information for discussion.

a reply to: rustyclutch

In this case there were no fighter aircraft escorting the civilian airliner, nor were there any military aircraft at all near the scene / flight level of the commercial aircraft.

If every attack by air that Ukraine launches against pro Russians occur at flight levels below 30k feet, then you identify the targets over that before shooting at it.

There was a reason Ukraine set the flight restrictions under those levels. If the Pro Russians are to stupid to understand how that works, then they have no business speaking on behalf of the people they supposedly represent, let alone being allowed to handle weapons of any kind.

The attack was intentional.
They are trying to cover it up.

If it comes out 100% that rebels shot it down, Russia will have no choice but to end any and all assistance to them. If its determined Russia is involved, I see Russia doing all they can to blame the Pro Russians.

originally posted by: pejanene
I do find the "youtube video" and "intercepted" phone calls a bit too convenient - what evidence is there to support who the people speaking actually are? We've seen and heard staged "recordings" many times in the past. What'll be interesting is some hard evidence such as satellite imaging etc. of the events and the downing of the plane. Having said that, if satellites are able to retrace and pick up the events quite clearly, it'll further bring into question why the efforts to identify what happened to MH370 were so lacking.

Yet, and not surprisingly, people dont find the intercepted and released phone calls Russia releases as a bit too convenient.

Alleged video of a Russian BUK AA system being moved away from E Ukraine toward the Russian border..

originally posted by: Kgdetroit

Audio available at link via Youtube. Maybe someone can imbed, I'm on mobile. This like every major news item is fast moving and fluid. I'm making no claims as to the validity of the phone calls, just adding information for discussion.