Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: rustyclutch

originally posted by: milomilo

I was curious so I noticed something else a little strange. If you look at the bottom of the page you can review every flight for each day of Malaysian Airlines leaving out of Amsterdam.

flightaware.com...

It seems this flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur is a daily flight. I went back and looked at the flight path of every flight from today all the way back until July 4th. It seems they have a very standard pre-programmed plan for this flight. In every flight I looked at just as they are entering the center of Ukraine the plane heads south and crosses over the Sea of Asov typically some 50 miles SOUTH of Mariupol. Each flight with out fail did this aside from one that veers even further south and actually goes directly over the Crimean Peninsula.

Of the 15 flights I looked not a single flight has not entered Russia over the Sea of Azov..aside from one..that was today's downed flight which is the only anomaly and for some reason continued straight over Donetsk which is some 100 MILES NORTH of where all the previous flights pathes.

John McCloy

I am of the belief that if that is true, and the reports of 2 military jets right before the crash are true, the rebels probably got baited. After 50 long pages of deliberation thats what my gut tells me. Kiev rerouted that plane to cross hostile territory accompanied by 2 fighters knowing they would draw fire. I don't think the people that were operating those missiles were total idiots. I also don't think they had terrorist intentions. Trickery seems like the most realistic explanation of all this to me. They simply got baited into attacking something they shouldn't have. Kind of like the Lusitania. They had warnings not to sail where they sailed, and they sailed anyways. The rest is history.

Interesting thought but for some reason I do not agree. I do believe there is a coordination of info between Russia
and Novorossia in regards to air space, or to be precise I think Russia is providing info to armed forces of Novorossia
about flights and types of planes. Otherwise, in my opinion, something like this would happened before.
They would not just risk to shot the plane down and see what type of plane is once it is on the ground. Especially not at this altitude.
Kiev forces are having heavy losses in a last week on southern front, which might be crucial for the result of this conflict and any distraction from that might help to slow down NAF forces and save Kiev's face.

originally posted by: rustyclutch

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: rustyclutch

Because your theory is contingent upon a misconception that aircraft cant deviate from their flight path at all. Its based on the misconception that if a plane appears on a commercial jet route and seems to deviate that it is grounds to shoot it down first before identifying the aircraft as a valid military target.

I didn't say that they CAN'T. You are simply implying that out of EVERY single flight pattern that shows them flying over a body of water they deviated and flew of Donetsk everytime. What sounds like a more absurd statement mine or yours? Even when presented with the visual evidence of flight patterns somehow you think your argument has more validity than mine.

Yes, because there are no flight restr5iction in place over 30k feet. They flight was in Ukraine airspace and not Russian. Its was using a valid commercial jet route. Anyone launching a missile should identify their target before they fire. Especially when the aircraft is above the altitudes military aircraft operating in the area were not operating at the days before.

Your theory attempts to shift blame to anyone but the person who ordered / fired the missile. That sir is a problem.

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra
en.itar-tass.com...
From your own page. Commercial flights closed.

Except it doesn't say that - it says that the rebels say that the infrastructure is destroyed so flights cannot go there.

However local infrastructure is not what long range international flights use - Ukrainian airspace is part of the Eurocontrol system - whatever was in the tower at Dontesk would be local control

a reply to: violet

Ummmmmmmm NO,

Several passengers on board a Malaysian jetliner shot down over Ukraine were world-renowned researchers heading to an international AIDS conference in Australia, officials said Friday.

"A number of people" on board the Boeing 777 were en route to the southern Australian city of Melbourne to attend the 20th International AIDS conference, which starts Sunday, Australian Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop told reporters in Brisbane.


abcnews.go.com...

a reply to: LDragonFire


and?

Congress can declare war all they want, the President is Commander in Chief and is the one who orders the military into action. If a military situation cant be resolved with a drone strike, Obama wont act.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

originally posted by: ionwind

originally posted by: LDragonFire
You all think this will spark WW3?

Unlikely. When KAL 007 (a 747) was shot down by the Soviets in 1983, at the height of the cold war, there was no military retaliation. Although it did prompt President Reagan to deliver his "Evil Empire" speech.

I could see the more economic sanctions against Russia though.

This makes me sick, I feel like we're just pawns in some stupid geopolitical game.

We are pawns, but I fail to understand why we are trying to blame Russia for this. I heard it spouted many times throughout the day on the US media...but that seems to be dangerous speculation on their/our part.

And what would sanctions do? Correct me if I am wrong, but many other nations rely on Russia to provide for their various needs. Russia does not rely on others.

originally posted by: Cablespider
Closed or not, the question remains as to why this particular flight deviated from the programmed path?

Also, the ITAR-TASS link claims the believed there were no restrictions based on the info they had at the time. Are they not sure? CYA!

If Ukraine controls those restrictions, couldn't they have given a green for flight through that zone?

Again, aircraft below 30k are restricted.

Over 30k feet is unrestricted air space for commercial flights.

a reply to: milomilo
Diversion due to weather.
Says chad Myers.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I would like you to think about something, in a military point of view. would you rather have fighter jets that are easy to scramble flying around at 10k feet or bombers flying around unrestricted at 35k ?

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Not at all.. But again props for attacking the poster instead of attacking the facts.

I would expect you to defend the Pro russians by stating they didnt shoot the plane down. Since you cant state that as fact, you come at me.

It gets old.. move on and grow up please.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: rustyclutch

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: rustyclutch

Because your theory is contingent upon a misconception that aircraft cant deviate from their flight path at all. Its based on the misconception that if a plane appears on a commercial jet route and seems to deviate that it is grounds to shoot it down first before identifying the aircraft as a valid military target.

I didn't say that they CAN'T. You are simply implying that out of EVERY single flight pattern that shows them flying over a body of water they deviated and flew of Donetsk everytime. What sounds like a more absurd statement mine or yours? Even when presented with the visual evidence of flight patterns somehow you think your argument has more validity than mine.

Yes, because there are no flight restr5iction in place over 30k feet. They flight was in Ukraine airspace and not Russian. Its was using a valid commercial jet route. Anyone launching a missile should identify their target before they fire. Especially when the aircraft is above the altitudes military aircraft operating in the area were not operating at the days before.

Your theory attempts to shift blame to anyone but the person who ordered / fired the missile. That sir is a problem.

Umm so let me get this straight. If I'm defending a city with anti aircraft weaponry....and I see 2 of your fighter jets and what I BELIEVE to be a transport or some other big military plane.....I'm just supposed to watch it fly over me and possibly bomb me? Furthermore....Kiev knew these separatists had taken over one of their air defense batteries. They should have IMMEDIATELY restricted the airspace in that whole area. People have no business flying over warzones. Doesn't matter who says its okay.....it's idiotic. I'm sticking with what I think till you come up with something better than just conjecture. I can do that myself. People have to think fast or die in war zones. That's why planes carrying civilians shouldn't fly over them. At ANY altitude. If you think otherwise book a flight over Donetsk.

a reply to: Xcathdra

instead of attacking the facts.

What facts? Did I miss something and there has been information leaked that it was Russia or pro-Russian forces to blame?

well thats one way to start a war.....

a reply to: cosmonova

Yes but you are forgetting....Initially they thought they shot down a transport plane. If they thought it was fighter jets and a transport plane, not to mention the plane had deviated from normal flight path.....I can see why they probably fired on it.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Yeah, why not..

According to some reports on intercepted radio and phone communications in the area, they knew exactly what they were shooting at before they even pulled the trigger, then applauded and cheered as it came down..

That in my opinion makes them terrorists. And if they are Russian or Pro-Russian forces, that makes Russia accountable...

originally posted by: rustyclutch
a reply to: cosmonova

Yes but you are forgetting....Initially they thought they shot down a transport plane. If they thought it was fighter jets and a transport plane, not to mention the plane had deviated from normal flight path.....I can see why they probably fired on it.

Hence the need yo pull the victory tweet once they realized what they shot down.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

My god man stop. That came directly from your source. Click and read. I did. One more thing. Anyone that flies over a war zone deserves to be shot down. That in my book is a no brainier.

And apparently untrained Pro Russian terrorists dont have issues shooting down a commercial jetliner full of civilians.

The airspace was not closed as your source claims.

Pro Russian Terrorists, lol. Russophobe much?

Not at all.. But again props for attacking the poster instead of attacking the facts.

I would expect you to defend the Pro russians by stating they didnt shoot the plane down. Since you cant state that as fact, you come at me.

It gets old.. move on and grow up please.

I just find it amusing to use that term. It shows weakness.

originally posted by: Bentnutt
a reply to: Xcathdra

I would like you to think about something, in a military point of view. would you rather have fighter jets that are easy to scramble flying around at 10k feet or bombers flying around unrestricted at 35k ?

That would depend on the mission in question. Since there are no large formations of pro rebel troops / equipment there would be no need for a bombing run at 30k+ feet.

In this instance, based on what I have seen reported from both sides media, fighter aircraft at lower altitudes are doing more damage than large scale high altitude bomb runs.

Its one thing to lose an aircraft at 10k feet to a sam where it could engage targets before being shot down. The same cannot be said for 30k+ feet. The high level missions are not as safe as the lower level ones. So in that case you are loosing an aircraft that would be more expensive than a fighter aircraft. You would be loosing more flight crew members. You would be losing ordinance on those bombers. Bombers, in general, are slower than fighter aircraft. Bombers, in general, are larger targets than fighter aircraft.

All for a slim chance of the bomber getting its ordinance off before being hit while hoping the ordinance hits something of value, which my guess would be it would not.

During the Vietnam war the North launched the Tet offensive. It was the first time North Vietnamese forces engaged the US forces in large scale organized engagements. While the offensive was successful from a propaganda point of view for the north, the NVA got their asses handed to them, forcing them back into the guerrilla style warfare they normally used.

Its a waste to try a bombing mission from high altitude when the target below might not be real.

one suspicious malaysian airlines disappearance : Possible foulplay

second incident involving another malaysian airline ? no coincidence here .. pure false flag cia style