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Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine
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although Dutch officials have previously said it would be "not realistic" to send troops in to bolster a team of police experts already on the ground.
So the Dutch will let the aussies cover there backs...
Harsh but it should have been done sooner. Can't let incidents like this happen or it will be become more common, IMO.
The whole thing has been a big joke. Regular people don't count in this world.
a reply to: Xcathdra
That's a bit simplistic - since it is, apparently, Russia's concerns that have led to this entire screw-up.
Of course Russia's concerns SHOULD be of no concern - but I find it's better to consider the real world as it exists rather than as I think it should exist!
That's a bit simplistic - since it is, apparently, Russia's concerns that have led to this entire screw-up.
Of course Russia's concerns SHOULD be of no concern - but I find it's better to consider the real world as it exists rather than as I think it should exist!
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul
I disagree as Russia has taken this position on several issues throughout this mess... namely they stated the movements of the Russian military inside Russia are no one else's concern but Russia's.
The same applies to Ukraine and its no business of Russia's.
I disagree as Russia has taken this position on several issues throughout this mess... namely they stated the movements of the Russian military inside Russia are no one else's concern but Russia's.
The same applies to Ukraine and its no business of Russia's.
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul
You should study history. The empires are built by strong rulers. Weaklings usually lose their thrones.
Russia faced the challenge of Chechenya as it had the strength.
Does Ukraine has the strength?
Russia did not call for sanctions against Georgia or called for outside help when it went about its wars.
There is nothing hypocritical here. The problem is with your understanding.
You should study history. The empires are built by strong rulers. Weaklings usually lose their thrones.
Russia faced the challenge of Chechenya as it had the strength.
Does Ukraine has the strength?
Russia did not call for sanctions against Georgia or called for outside help when it went about its wars.
There is nothing hypocritical here. The problem is with your understanding.
originally posted by: GargIndia
There is nothing hypocritical here. The problem is with your understanding.
Uhm no.. its with your logic.
Russia invaded Georgia.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Neither country is NATO.
Russia has run out of non NATO countries to invade. I think we know the reason why. Its difficult to run an empire when you get your ass kicked.
Now shall we stop with the war bs?
originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul
I disagree as Russia has taken this position on several issues throughout this mess... namely they stated the movements of the Russian military inside Russia are no one else's concern but Russia's.
The same applies to Ukraine and its no business of Russia's.
What are you trying to say? It is not clear.
The USA says that it can send its military anywhere on the planet and interfere in any country's business. Now that country has Ukraine as proxy. This situation is hardly worth moralistic lectures.
Russia has finally acted to preserve its dominion and secure its borders. The objective can hardly be debated.
If Obama is a fool (who can tolerate lawlessness at its border), does not mean other leaders have to follow.
After the initial accusation toward Russia and the Rebels, the today's silence of the media over this incident is rather telling. The russian
goverment evidence presentation cannot be ignored as it showed an aircraft tailing the MH17 for whatever reasons and the deviation of MH17 to the
north trajectory before heading back south. we have yet to see the US satellite or signal intercept from the MH17 incident , which is pretty strange
considering all the accusation and blame and sactions that already aired by western goverments..
one fact for certain, after this disaster the previously reluctant EU now impose new sactions to Russia. Coincidence ?
this is a good read for those who's curious :
www.counterpunch.org...
one fact for certain, after this disaster the previously reluctant EU now impose new sactions to Russia. Coincidence ?
this is a good read for those who's curious :
www.counterpunch.org...
Without a shred of public evidence to support their claim that Moscow was involved in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the United States and Europe have levied a new round of sanctions on Russia. The sanctions, which are designed to restrict Russia’s access to both capital and technology, will be imposed as soon as August 1, despite the fact that Moscow has repeatedly denied either involvement in the incident or of providing material support for the militants fighting in east Ukraine. Not surprisingly, Russia will not be given a chance to defend itself in court or present its case before an independent tribunal.
In contrast, the US hasn’t lifted a finger to help the investigation even though it has the most advanced, state-of-the-art surveillance systems in the world and even though it had a satellite — capable of reading a license plate from outer space — hovering directly overhead at the time the aircraft blew up.
“Pentagon officials told CNN (on Tuesday) that the Ukrainian government fired three ballistic missiles towards the federalists during the last 48 hours.” (Moon of Alabama)
If the Pentagon picked up the ballistic missile launches on their radar, they certainly saw the surface-to-air missiles that brought down MH17. Case closed.
So why hasn’t Washington been more forthcoming with the information they have? Why are they basing their judgment on the nonsense they’ve gleaned from social media and Twitter feeds instead of spy-in-the-sky photos and satellite imagery? Why are they dragging their feet and obstructing the investigation? And why, for God sakes, why has Europe agreed to go along with this charade when they know there’s not a scintilla of evidence linking Russia to the downed plane?
a reply to: buntalanlucu
* - For starters an investigation occurs before any court / tribunal.
* - Those forums would be where the arguments are made by both sides.
* - Under international law the US has offered technical assistance / investigators.
* - Primary investigation falls to the country the incident occurred in. In this case Ukraine, and unless Ukraine requests the US assistance, there is not one thing we can do about.
* - The Dutch are in the lead because of the number of nationals they lost.
The conclusions / comments made in the article are being made by an individual who does not seem to know the protocol / laws for how this works.
People demand the US release its evidence.
The US did.
Those who did not like the outcome ignored / dismissed it. Just as is being done in the article.
* - For starters an investigation occurs before any court / tribunal.
* - Those forums would be where the arguments are made by both sides.
* - Under international law the US has offered technical assistance / investigators.
* - Primary investigation falls to the country the incident occurred in. In this case Ukraine, and unless Ukraine requests the US assistance, there is not one thing we can do about.
* - The Dutch are in the lead because of the number of nationals they lost.
The conclusions / comments made in the article are being made by an individual who does not seem to know the protocol / laws for how this works.
People demand the US release its evidence.
The US did.
Those who did not like the outcome ignored / dismissed it. Just as is being done in the article.
originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: buntalanlucu
* - For starters an investigation occurs before any court / tribunal.
* - Those forums would be where the arguments are made by both sides.
* - Under international law the US has offered technical assistance / investigators.
* - Primary investigation falls to the country the incident occurred in. In this case Ukraine, and unless Ukraine requests the US assistance, there is not one thing we can do about.
* - The Dutch are in the lead because of the number of nationals they lost.
The conclusions / comments made in the article are being made by an individual who does not seem to know the protocol / laws for how this works.
People demand the US release its evidence.
The US did.
Those who did not like the outcome ignored / dismissed it. Just as is being done in the article.
im sorry that is not how it happened. when the MH17 incident happened, the western leaders and media immediately blamed russia and rebels.. that can be seen from all mainstream media heavily leaned toward blaming russia.
i saw this as another provocation from US to push EU toward another sanction , or at least using this tragedy for their political gains.
and ao far US never released any evidence , of course real evidence and not some fake stuff from social media. Im pretty sure US got enough data on the shooting , they just havent released it yet for some reason.
funnily after the barrage of initial accusations by western leaders , now they seem to paddle back and wait for evidence..
-----
For a good comparison, anyone remember the Flight 800 incident ? even after many people suspected it was a terrorist attack by missile, no goverment person/leader/official start any accusation against anyone but they all wait for the investigation.
-----
so basically everyone should work together in this investigation, not provoking or accusing or sanctioning like mad before the result
a reply to: buntalanlucu
Actually Russia accused Ukraine. Then Russia was caught edited the facebook page on the disaster and blamed Ukraine there. As for the info I posted its how it goes.
Actually Russia accused Ukraine. Then Russia was caught edited the facebook page on the disaster and blamed Ukraine there. As for the info I posted its how it goes.
edit on 2-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Xcathdra
Facebook page on disaster? Are you crazy. Who likes your posts and gives you flags.
You mean to say that the Russian government publishes its communiques through facebook.
Anybody can say anything on facebook.
As for accusations, there are copious accusations flying around. What is so special about Russia blaming Ukraine.
Russia is correct in saying Kiev's actions contributed to the tragedy as Kiev is using fighter aircrafts, artillery and rockets against rebels thus escalating the civil war.
It is very likely that SAMs will be deployed if fighters are used.
Facebook page on disaster? Are you crazy. Who likes your posts and gives you flags.
You mean to say that the Russian government publishes its communiques through facebook.
Anybody can say anything on facebook.
As for accusations, there are copious accusations flying around. What is so special about Russia blaming Ukraine.
Russia is correct in saying Kiev's actions contributed to the tragedy as Kiev is using fighter aircrafts, artillery and rockets against rebels thus escalating the civil war.
It is very likely that SAMs will be deployed if fighters are used.
a reply to: GargIndia
So Ukraine isn't allowed to stop an armed insurgency in their own country that is being backed by another country?
And has Russia not done the same thing when it comes to the same problem ( Chechans), but of course Russia lives by it's own set of rules that doesn't work if your in other countries.
A country has the right to defend themselves from any threat being it from interior or exterior forces, such as what Ukraine is doing as we speak.
It's more than likely and in fact it is already been proven they have used them already...MH 17 already shows that.
Russia is correct in saying Kiev's actions contributed to the tragedy as Kiev is using fighter aircrafts, artillery and rockets against rebels thus escalating the civil war.
So Ukraine isn't allowed to stop an armed insurgency in their own country that is being backed by another country?
And has Russia not done the same thing when it comes to the same problem ( Chechans), but of course Russia lives by it's own set of rules that doesn't work if your in other countries.
A country has the right to defend themselves from any threat being it from interior or exterior forces, such as what Ukraine is doing as we speak.
It is very likely that SAMs will be deployed if fighters are used.
It's more than likely and in fact it is already been proven they have used them already...MH 17 already shows that.
a reply to: GargIndia
Actually I meant to say wikipedia and not facebook.. my bad.
I was reading an updated article that now shows 3 Russian facebook accounts of soldiers, Russian soldiers, deployed in Ukraine.
Actually I meant to say wikipedia and not facebook.. my bad.
I was reading an updated article that now shows 3 Russian facebook accounts of soldiers, Russian soldiers, deployed in Ukraine.
edit on
2-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
Can anybody tell me what this article is about? Somebody sent me the link but I can't read it and Google translate doesn't do a great job.
htt p://censor.net.ua/video_news/296010/snbo_terroristy_styanuli_k_mestu_padeniya_boinga777_tyajeluyu_artilleriyu_i_zaminirovali_podhody_video[editb y]edit on 2-8-2014 by fatdeeman because: (no reason given)
htt p://censor.net.ua/video_news/296010/snbo_terroristy_styanuli_k_mestu_padeniya_boinga777_tyajeluyu_artilleriyu_i_zaminirovali_podhody_video[editb y]edit on 2-8-2014 by fatdeeman because: (no reason given)
The radar track showed that MH17 suddenly veered northwards for a while then sharply veered south again before it was shot down by parties unknow.
the radar track showed unknow small aircraft , fighter sized , trailing/following MH17 before it sudden movement north.
something is not right here.. im sure the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the ATC communication will show something , maybe a mayday call from the pilot when he got attacked by unknown fighter and take a evasive action north ?
but suspiciously the ATC recording was forcibly taken by Ukrainian Secret Service SBU.. why ? and since then they havent released it , why ? what are they doing with the ATC recording ? are they afraid of something in there ?
Let see the ATC recording and Cockpit voice recorder data , i hope they are not 'doctored' by certain agencies
the radar track showed unknow small aircraft , fighter sized , trailing/following MH17 before it sudden movement north.
something is not right here.. im sure the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the ATC communication will show something , maybe a mayday call from the pilot when he got attacked by unknown fighter and take a evasive action north ?
but suspiciously the ATC recording was forcibly taken by Ukrainian Secret Service SBU.. why ? and since then they havent released it , why ? what are they doing with the ATC recording ? are they afraid of something in there ?
Let see the ATC recording and Cockpit voice recorder data , i hope they are not 'doctored' by certain agencies
a reply to: buntalanlucu
According to the coordinates from FR24 and Flightaware they dud no such thing. They flew a straight track the entire time until they were shot down.
The other plane that popped up on radar (I assume you are talking about the Russian radar) didn't show up until after the flight was hit, and stayed on radar about the same amount of time it would have taken debris from the flight to fall.
As for the transcript, those are never released until the investigators have examined them.
According to the coordinates from FR24 and Flightaware they dud no such thing. They flew a straight track the entire time until they were shot down.
The other plane that popped up on radar (I assume you are talking about the Russian radar) didn't show up until after the flight was hit, and stayed on radar about the same amount of time it would have taken debris from the flight to fall.
As for the transcript, those are never released until the investigators have examined them.