Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
a reply to: dragonridr

So why has the Ukraine refused to give up the ATC tapes? Other pilots have also noted that the weather along the normal route was not so inclement as to warrant a change.

Read the analysis.

ATC tapes are considered evidence and can be released once the air investigation portion is complete.

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
a reply to: dragonridr

So why has the Ukraine refused to give up the ATC tapes? Other pilots have also noted that the weather along the normal route was not so inclement as to warrant a change.

Read the analysis.

first the Dutch investigators have access to them they stated they received then from Ukraine standard procedure in an investigation. But if it was Ukraine rerouting the flight please explain to me how come the flight from russia was travelling through the same area can Ukraine reroute Russian traffic as well? Or do you think maybe the flight corridor was adjusted see they will adjust them to avoid storms that could be hundreds of miles away. They adjust flight corridors to avoid storms and provide best fuel economy.

Depending on the flight level and ATC control any flight within ATCs control zone, regardless of flag, is subordinate to the ATC.

Since there seems to be a lot of questions / confusion on ATC -

In General -
Air Traffic Control


In the most basic, simple terms ATC can be viewed as a Waffle Cone (Ice Cream) with the point on the ground and the opening in the air. At the lower levels aircraft are handled by the various airports - Landing, taking off, emergencies etc.

As you go up the cone you leave the airport ATC and move to the regional / national ATC system. These centers are respinsible for aircraft in their zone that are at certain flight levels. As they travel through each zone, they are handed off to the next control zone. This system is used for ocean crossings, albeit radar coverage is not always complete. If you are on a flight from LA to Miami when the aircraft hits a certain altitude the regional centers keep track of the flight, passed from coverage area to coverage area as it makes its way to Miami. At its destination it reduces altitude and his handed back to the local ATC centers.

a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
a reply to: Xcathdra

why did the us engineer the coup?

Why did Russia invade Ukraine and support the rebels who shot a civilian airliner down?

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I see logic is not your strong suit

a reply to: BilboBaggins3

I see logic is not your strong suit

Well then please apply some of your logic on us and show us where we went wrong logically.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Oh good.. another influx of green names who are new members commenting in Ukraine threads, picking up right where other green names left off.

It is simply not fair is it?

Cry me a river.

Maybe a good question to ask is why do people have to bring balance into these discussions with disposable accounts in the first place.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
a reply to: Xcathdra

why did the us engineer the coup?

Why did Russia invade Ukraine and support the rebels who shot a civilian airliner down?

It looks like the answer is in the post you qouted. And btw, it has not been proven yet that the rebels shot it.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Well then please apply some of your logic on us and show us where we went wrong logically.

Us?

The post you responded to was directed at Xcathdra specifically.

Are you one and the same?

a reply to: Psynic


sorry here is the link again

21stcenturywire.com...

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

I know but is the fragments metal or tungsten. Tungsten is more slike crome when you look at it. Its not gray like metal fragments.

a reply to: GuerillaSkill

The post you responded to was directed at Xcathdra specifically.

Are you one and the same?

No, but does it matter who replies to a post, because the last time I checked there is nothing that says another member cannot reply to any post.

But please feel free to show me where that is stated and it won't happen again.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Why did Russia invade Ukraine and support the rebels who shot a civilian airliner down?

Or better yet...

Why did the Russian backed president steal billions from the country he was elected to run?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

I know but is the fragments metal or tungsten. Tungsten is more slike crome when you look at it. Its not gray like metal fragments.

The casing of the missile would be made of steel the tungsten is pact in the warhead its job is to create a cloud of debris. This gives the Buk the ability to shoot down missiles as well same as patriot missile system. i explained earlier the reason we know it was a sam is shrapnel damage and air to air missile does not do this. Tungsten carbide can be anywhere from grey to silver depending on processing. So you cant identify shrapnel by by its color.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

I know but is the fragments metal or tungsten. Tungsten is more slike crome when you look at it. Its not gray like metal fragments.

The casing of the missile would be made of steel the tungsten is pact in the warhead its job is to create a cloud of debris. This gives the Buk the ability to shoot down missiles as well same as patriot missile system. i explained earlier the reason we know it was a sam is shrapnel damage and air to air missile does not do this. Tungsten carbide can be anywhere from grey to silver depending on processing. So you cant identify shrapnel by by its color.

But tungsten is the fragments that would penetrate. It is the tungsten that is caped in high explosives. I know because i used ot be a combat diver. Knowing explosives are my thing. It would be a shaped charge covering a specific radius depending on the fuze set distance to target.

If it was a SAM it would most likely go of 25 to 35 meter before imapct. To get max fragments to hit target depending on the shaped charge. I dont know the shaped charge of a BUK missile.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

I know but is the fragments metal or tungsten. Tungsten is more slike crome when you look at it. Its not gray like metal fragments.

The casing of the missile would be made of steel the tungsten is pact in the warhead its job is to create a cloud of debris. This gives the Buk the ability to shoot down missiles as well same as patriot missile system. i explained earlier the reason we know it was a sam is shrapnel damage and air to air missile does not do this. Tungsten carbide can be anywhere from grey to silver depending on processing. So you cant identify shrapnel by by its color.

But tungsten is the fragments that would penetrate. It is the tungsten that is caped in high explosives. I know because i used ot be a combat diver. Knowing explosives are my thing. It would be a shaped charge covering a specific radius depending on the fuze set distance to target.

If it was a SAM it would most likely go of 25 to 35 meter before imapct. To get max fragments to hit target depending on the shaped charge. I dont know the shaped charge of a BUK missile.

Everything i read places it between 13 and 15 meters for the Buk pretty standard actually patriot is set at 35 ft. Now tungsten isnt capped with anything its layered in the war head surrounding a shaped charge. Remember they want maximum dispersal to attain this they cut tungsten strips and place then around the warhead.If they are able to reassemble the plane they can tell exactly how far away it was but under the circumstances i dont think thats likely.

Listen to this. I dont know if John McCain speaks for the US government, but he does state that the pro-russian dont have a missile that could shot Down MH17.

Listen to this:

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Was that shrapnel tungsten or metal?

BUK missiles use Tungsten.

Most use either tungsten or depleted uranium when using a surface to air missile you want heavy objects to launch forward. The use of depleted Uranium has decreased since the 90s even though oddly more effective. But there are environmental concerns and it became an issue so most missiles now use tungsten. Just so you know tungsten is metal by the way.

I know but is the fragments metal or tungsten. Tungsten is more slike crome when you look at it. Its not gray like metal fragments.

The casing of the missile would be made of steel the tungsten is pact in the warhead its job is to create a cloud of debris. This gives the Buk the ability to shoot down missiles as well same as patriot missile system. i explained earlier the reason we know it was a sam is shrapnel damage and air to air missile does not do this. Tungsten carbide can be anywhere from grey to silver depending on processing. So you cant identify shrapnel by by its color.

But tungsten is the fragments that would penetrate. It is the tungsten that is caped in high explosives. I know because i used ot be a combat diver. Knowing explosives are my thing. It would be a shaped charge covering a specific radius depending on the fuze set distance to target.

If it was a SAM it would most likely go of 25 to 35 meter before imapct. To get max fragments to hit target depending on the shaped charge. I dont know the shaped charge of a BUK missile.

Everything i read places it between 13 and 15 meters for the Buk pretty standard actually patriot is set at 35 ft. Now tungsten isnt capped with anything its layered in the war head surrounding a shaped charge. Remember they want maximum dispersal to attain this they cut tungsten strips and place then around the warhead.If they are able to reassemble the plane they can tell exactly how far away it was but under the circumstances i dont think thats likely.

The disteance the fuze is set at depends on trarget speed and the approuch the missile will at target. In this case it was head on. The fuze must og of a bit sooner or moste of the fragments will overshoot the target.