Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: fatdeeman

Whats the big deal.

Killing people is OK for you. Talking about something worthless like mascara is not OK. Looting/stealing is in western culture. I find nothing strange here. The same happens in your country as well.

The complete sense of morality is dead in you.

While picking up stuff from crash scene may look offensive to you, Ukrainian/European/American mercenaries are killing people wantonly in East Ukraine. That does not shake you.

You are just a crazy. The very fact that USA/EU is supporting one side of a vicious war in Ukraine is horrible which goes unnoticed by all posters on this board.

Russia has every right to take any actions to ensure security of its nation. I completely support Russian actions against Ukraine.

I've literally got no idea what the hell you're talking about. Because I found someone being proud of looting distasteful means I have no compassion for people who lose their lives? Seriously how did you come to that conclusion? You've put two and two together and come up with z.

All you've achieved with that unfocused and irrational rant is to show how clearly biased you are about the whole situation.

a reply to: dragonridr

This will be offtopic in this thread but is a reaction on your post about finding information.
Since 2000 many sites were born and have grown to be sources for people, but how credible are they.
There are so much sites which offer misinformation, either intentionally or to attract followers for more hits and thus income out of advertising, donations and selling whatever they are able to sell to their followers.
What we have seen in the last 15 years is mainly a growing group of conspiracists about everything that is happening in the world.
It has become a brainwasher for the mass, so yes there is lots of information to find on the net, but 90 percent is propaganda and mixed with intentional misinformation.

Brains in a knot, until not being able to be disentangled.

Investigators have managed to download "valid" information from downed flight MH17's black box cockpit voice recorder (CVR) despite it being damaged.

The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the probe into the Malaysia Airlines crash, also said there was no evidence the recorder was tampered with following claims by Ukrainian authorities.

After examining the CVR, the board said the "memory module was intact" and the downloaded data will be analysed in more depth.

It added: "A thorough analysis of the information obtained will take time, the results of this will be included in the investigation."

On Friday, the international team of investigators will start looking at the black box flight data recorder (FDR).

It went on: "This will show whether this recorder also contains relevant information, in which case the data from both recorders will be combined."

news.sky.com...

It's Time to Assign Blame For Everything Happening in Ukraine
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By James Miller

July 24, 2014 | 3:40 pm
The body of evidence that Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 is overwhelming. To start, separatist leaders bragged about shooting down an aircraft, then retracted their claims when they realized it was a passenger plane and not a military transport.

The veil has been dropped. Russia is driving this conflict, feeding the flames by providing the rebels with tanks, anti-aircraft missiles, fighters, and perhaps most importantly, cover in the international community.

This crisis exists because Russia wants it to exist. It’s time for the international community to realize that Putin is not a reliable partner in solving it.

news.vice.com...

Who shot the plane down seems like a moot point to me at this stage.

I really think everyone is underestimating or looking over the possible ramifications of Australia and the dutch ( and possibly other NATO friendly countries ) committing armed troops into Eastern Ukraine.

A dubious plane crash in the centre of an active war zone. Australian troops perhaps alongside dutch troops ( AFP officers my ass ) deploy to the crash site. Which happens to be a 50 km squared area in the middle of a hot war zone - to preserve the bodies and evidence long removed and contaminated. without even a basic acknowledgement of the proof or questions Russian intel has provided in regards to the perpetrators of shooting down the plane - Shortly after condemning Russia in a ridiculously assumptive fashion.

My bet is that the troops/officers deploy ( perhaps alongside dutch troops ) and shortly thereafter a number of them are killed by snipers (most likely by the same entity that was sniping the protesters of Maidan ) The russians or russian backed "rebels".

This article describes the motives and possible and perhaps even intended outcomes better than I could convey.

A must read for those interested in the buildup to the next all out total war ( best way to put it as ww3 is technically here already )

www.wsws.org...

a reply to: tippo

In order for there to be proof, one must be able to look at all the evidence and go from there. Since the rebels are destroying the crime scene it makes one wonder what they are hiding.

As for Russia a lot of what they have been claiming have either been blatant lies or omission of facts. With Russia shelling Ukraine military sites along the border and Russian aircraft / sam systems shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft, from the Russian side of the border into Ukrainian airspace, Russia is in no position to be considered unbiased in the information they are releasing.

originally posted by: fatdeeman

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: fatdeeman

Whats the big deal.

Killing people is OK for you. Talking about something worthless like mascara is not OK. Looting/stealing is in western culture. I find nothing strange here. The same happens in your country as well.

The complete sense of morality is dead in you.

While picking up stuff from crash scene may look offensive to you, Ukrainian/European/American mercenaries are killing people wantonly in East Ukraine. That does not shake you.

You are just a crazy. The very fact that USA/EU is supporting one side of a vicious war in Ukraine is horrible which goes unnoticed by all posters on this board.

Russia has every right to take any actions to ensure security of its nation. I completely support Russian actions against Ukraine.

I've literally got no idea what the hell you're talking about. Because I found someone being proud of looting distasteful means I have no compassion for people who lose their lives? Seriously how did you come to that conclusion? You've put two and two together and come up with z.

All you've achieved with that unfocused and irrational rant is to show how clearly biased you are about the whole situation.

Your post about "mascara" was completely irrelevant to the subject.

This is the reason I reacted.

I have time and again posted that it is impossible to secure such a large crash zone even for an organized and resourceful government, let alone what Donetsk can manage in a civil war.

Why is this fact so difficult for you to understand. Have you got any brains??

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: tippo

In order for there to be proof, one must be able to look at all the evidence and go from there. Since the rebels are destroying the crime scene it makes one wonder what they are hiding.

As for Russia a lot of what they have been claiming have either been blatant lies or omission of facts. With Russia shelling Ukraine military sites along the border and Russian aircraft / sam systems shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft, from the Russian side of the border into Ukrainian airspace, Russia is in no position to be considered unbiased in the information they are releasing.

So...

You people never considered Russia unbiased, so what is new??

a reply to: GargIndia

You people never considered Russia unbiased, so what is new??

Well until they quit the one sided news for the people how can they be considered unbiased?

Being unbiased means you show the conflict and report about both sides, but the problem we have here is that they don't and they won't as that would be too damaging to Putin's approval ratings.

originally posted by: tippo
Who shot the plane down seems like a moot point to me at this stage.

I really think everyone is underestimating or looking over the possible ramifications of Australia and the dutch ( and possibly other NATO friendly countries ) committing armed troops into Eastern Ukraine.

A dubious plane crash in the centre of an active war zone. Australian troops perhaps alongside dutch troops ( AFP officers my ass ) deploy to the crash site. Which happens to be a 50 km squared area in the middle of a hot war zone - to preserve the bodies and evidence long removed and contaminated. without even a basic acknowledgement of the proof or questions Russian intel has provided in regards to the perpetrators of shooting down the plane - Shortly after condemning Russia in a ridiculously assumptive fashion.

My bet is that the troops/officers deploy ( perhaps alongside dutch troops ) and shortly thereafter a number of them are killed by snipers (most likely by the same entity that was sniping the protesters of Maidan ) The russians or russian backed "rebels".

This article describes the motives and possible and perhaps even intended outcomes better than I could convey.

A must read for those interested in the buildup to the next all out total war ( best way to put it as ww3 is technically here already )

www.wsws.org...

Your link is not working.

originally posted by: GargIndia

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: tippo

In order for there to be proof, one must be able to look at all the evidence and go from there. Since the rebels are destroying the crime scene it makes one wonder what they are hiding.

As for Russia a lot of what they have been claiming have either been blatant lies or omission of facts. With Russia shelling Ukraine military sites along the border and Russian aircraft / sam systems shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft, from the Russian side of the border into Ukrainian airspace, Russia is in no position to be considered unbiased in the information they are releasing.

So...

You people never considered Russia unbiased, so what is new??

Kind of hard to since they started lying right from the beginning with the invasion of Crimea. There are no Russian troops in Crimea we heard that over and over only to see russian troops all over Crimea with equipment they forgot to take the plates off of. With Eastern Ukraine they got smarter and tried not to make it as obvious. But thats also why it wasnt as successful. In Crimea Ukraine didnt want to fight Russia and knew those were Russian troops. In Eastern Ukraine ive seen estimates that as much as 60 percent of the separatists are in fact Russian nationals. But Russia claimed there volunteers there fore this gave Ukraine the ability to fight back.Because now they arent fighting the Russian army well at least they can make that claim anyway.

This is the best analysis I've seen so far

21stcenturywire.com...

Oh good.. another influx of green names who are new members commenting in Ukraine threads, picking up right where other green names left off.


Why have the rebels refused to admit investigators back into the scenes of the crime?
Why does Russia have 15k troops on the border?
Why is Russia shooting down Ukraine airplanes over Ukraine territory from Russian soil?
Why is Russian artillery, on Russian soil, engaging ukraine military units in ukraine territory.

That type of stupid arrogance by Putin is how things spiral out of control resulting in a massive body count.

Putin needs to stop or be stopped.

There is growing concern by Russian billionaires / putin supporters that the latest actions will move sanction beyond individuals, and they would be correct. Puts arrogance is going to destroy his presidency and world standing.

a reply to: Xcathdra

why did the us engineer the coup?

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
This is the best analysis I've seen so far

21stcenturywire.com...

Getting warmer, much warmer, almost there.

Finally something that makes some sense.

Eventually we'll see who was really calling the tune here.

Then the real fun will begin.

Breaking News Thread for this new info started here -
www.abovetopsecret.com...


MH17 Black Box Data Shows Evidence Of Missile Strike

As Russia continues to deny culpability for the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine, European officials say that black box data shows the doomed airplane was hit by a missile explosion, according to CBS News.

Data from the black box points to a "massive explosive decompression," with the plane's fuselage getting hit by shrapnel from the explosion.

This is consistent with a photo of a piece of the plane's wreckage that shows obvious signs of shrapnel damage, according to The Aviationist. The missile likely detonated on the right side of the plane, sending shrapnel clear through the aircraft, eventually shooting out of the left side.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

CBS News - Black box findings consistent with missile blast

Now what?

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: BilboBaggins3
This is the best analysis I've seen so far

21stcenturywire.com...

Getting warmer, much warmer, almost there.

Finally something that makes some sense.

Eventually we'll see who was really calling the tune here.

Then the real fun will begin.

Funny they claim Ukraine ATC changed the flight so one they were psychic and knew the rebels would shoot it down. Odd assumption but the truth is the flight corridor changed this happens to avoid storms doesnt have to be over that area either. You do realize according to Russians on radar information a civilian airline was heading in the opposite direction. Does this mean Russia diverted it over a war zone in hopes the separatists would shoot it down? You had 3 other aircraft using the same flight corridor. By the way when there is a flight corridor change Russia would have been informed as well just so you know.

And since apparently Ukraine wasnt the one who changed the flight corridor since the ATC recordings were indeed released must have been Russia? As for there air to air missile theory been torn to pieces impossible for that Ukrainian jet to take the shot according to Russia's on radar release. So this is nothing more than misinformation to try to cloud the truth. Trust me everything that was said to the pilot was recorded apparently along with the blast and depressurization of the cabin. As you sat we will see whos calling the tune here and it was Russia when they supplied SAMs to a group that shouldnt have had them. Obvious by there lack of concern for civilian aviation since they had no way to verify who a plane was before shooting it down.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Wow that video makes it clear that was shrapnel shot through the air frame that was steel. And Russia was going to try to tell us a frogfoot shot down the plane . Ukraine doesnt have an air to air missile that could do that kind of damage in fact to my knowledge no country does. Air to air missiles do not rely on shrapnel to bring down a plane as i explained earlier. They drill holes in planes on impact they explode doesnt look like a shotgun blast. That a sam with a big warhead that uses shrapnel. Also for those people that keep insisting the rebels didnt have a Buk figured id show these.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the Buk missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.
Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the Buk missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising altitude. But since the disaster, the separatists’ main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

nypost.com...

found this interesting as well if true gives you some background also gives them someone to try in court wouldnt want to be this bezler guy.

About three hours later, at 4:18 p.m., according to a recording from an intercepted phone call that has been released by Ukraine's government, the Buk's crew snapped to attention when a spotter called in a report of an incoming airplane.

"A bird is flying to you," the spotter tells the rebel, identified by the Ukrainians as Igor Bezler, an insurgent commander who the Ukrainian government asserts is also a Russian intelligence officer.

The man identified as Bezler responds: "Reconnaissance plane or a big one?"

"I can't see behind the clouds. Too high," the spotter replies.

The rebel official who spoke to the AP about the incident said that Bezler commanded another fighter, code-named Sapper, who was the ranking rebel officer with the missile launcher at the time.

According to the rebel official, Sapper led a rebel unit, about half of which was made up of men from far eastern Russia, many from the island of Sakhalin off Russia's Pacific coast.

Sapper is from the nearby town of Yenakiieve, he said. The town also happens to be the home of the former president, Yanukovych.

Sapper could not be reached for comment; his real identity is not known. Bezler, contacted on Friday by the AP, denied any connection to the attack on the plane. "I did not shoot down the Malaysia Airlines plane. I did not have the physical capabilities to do so," he declared.

According to the account of the rebel official, however, Sapper had been sent that day to inspect three checkpoints — in the towns of Debaltsevo, Chernukhino and Snizhne, all of which are within a 20-mile (30-kilometer) radius of where the plane went down. At some point in these travels, he joined up with the convoy accompanying the missile launch system.

At about 4:20 p.m., in the town of Torez, six miles (10 kilometers) west of Snizhne, residents heard loud noises. Some reported hearing two blasts, while others recall only one.

"I heard two powerful blasts in a row. First there was one, but then after a minute, a minute and a half, there was another discharge," said Rostislav Grishin, a 21-year-old prison guard. "I raised my head and within a minute I could see a plane falling through the clouds."

At 4:40 p.m., in another intercepted call released by Ukraine, the man identified as Bezler tells his own superior that the unit had shot down a plane.

"Just shot down a plane. It was Sapper's group. It went down beyond Yenakiieve," the man says.

While the authenticity of the intercept cannot be verified independently, the U.S. Embassy in Kiev said specialists in the intelligence community have deemed it authentic.

As for the Buk, Nayda said, intelligence suggests it went back on the move shortly after the attack.
That very night, he said, it crossed the border, back into Russia.

___

Leonard reported from Kiev. Other AP correspondents in eastern Ukraine assisted in this report.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

originally posted by: dragonridr
According to the rebel official, Sapper led a rebel unit, about half of which was made up of men from far eastern Russia, many from the island of Sakhalin off Russia's Pacific coast.

Sapper is from the nearby town of Yenakiieve, he said. The town also happens to be the home of the former president, Yanukovych.

Sapper could not be reached for comment; his real identity is not known. Bezler, contacted on Friday by the AP, denied any connection to the attack on the plane. "I did not shoot down the Malaysia Airlines plane. I did not have the physical capabilities to do so," he declared.

The bolded part above is interesting. The response is phrased in a way to deny a direct action while specifically avoiding a denial it occurred at all.

At no point did he deny if any orders were given. He stuck to just himself.

A classic avoidance technique. He is trying to distance himself from the incident in a way it does not get him in trouble, by any side.

a reply to: dragonridr

So why has the Ukraine refused to give up the ATC tapes? Other pilots have also noted that the weather along the normal route was not so inclement as to warrant a change.

Read the analysis.