Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: fatdeeman
Let's assume the Russians did track something else close to M17, would they be able to tell the difference between a su 25 and the nose section of the plane falling? Would they have similar radar cross sections? Could the nose falling appear similar to a plane that's decreasing altitude?

My initial feeling is that you couldn't confuse one with the other but then again if the nose followed a relatively straight path and just decreased altitude as it fell I suppose it could me mistaken for a small aircraft maneuvering.

At the debriefing they mentioned why it was a SU 25. The New indentification mark that showed up indicated that it was a SU-25 because, and they argued that it didnt have a secondary indentification mark installes whch was typical for a military Aircraft. Russia should know what a SU25 mark would look like on radar, they buildt the Su 25.

if a US Ticonderoga-class Aegis guided missile cruiser could not know the difference between an airbus and an F-14 then has radar improved, and that Russian radar, to be able to know what an SU-25 return is.

edit:

The New indentification mark that showed up indicated that it was a SU-25 because, and they argued that it didnt have a secondary indentification mark installes whch was typical for a military Aircraft

So it must be an SU-25. Somewhat of a stretch.

originally posted by: roadgravel
if a US Ticonderoga-class Aegis guided missile cruiser could not know the difference between an airbus and an F-14 then has radar improved, and that Russian radar, to be able to know what an SU-25 return is.

edit:

The New indentification mark that showed up indicated that it was a SU-25 because, and they argued that it didnt have a secondary indentification mark installes whch was typical for a military Aircraft

So it must be an SU-25. Somewhat of a stretch.

Wha can i say. Should i rather believe you or the general?

I am just arguing the evidence the way they are. I am not going pretend a BUK did this, because there are no evidence.

originally posted by: roadgravel
if a US Ticonderoga-class Aegis guided missile cruiser could not know the difference between an airbus and an F-14 then has radar improved, and that Russian radar, to be able to know what an SU-25 return is.

edit:

The New indentification mark that showed up indicated that it was a SU-25 because, and they argued that it didnt have a secondary indentification mark installes whch was typical for a military Aircraft

So it must be an SU-25. Somewhat of a stretch.

They cant what it was is it had a transponder thwy just didnt get a reply so they assume it was military. They have no way to tell from a radar return.

a reply to: spy66

Id go with him over the Russian general. See his radar contact flew behind the 777 than went to the crash sight and hivered. So i guess he figures Ukraime has harriers. I dont think truthfully he believed it either he was made to say it by kremlin.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: spy66

Id go with him over the Russian general. See his radar contact flew behind the 777 than went to the crash sight and hivered. So i guess he figures Ukraime has harriers. I dont think truthfully he believed it either he was made to say it by kremlin.

Where are the evidence that prove that a Jet was flying behind the 777?

There isnt any other than the weird radar returns russia showed in briefings and the strange claims they made.

There isnt any other than the weird radar returns russia showed in briefings and the strange claims they made.

a reply to: spy66

I was questioning not stating fact. I'm not sure anyone should believe the general either.

Well this is interesting...And I know it is from before the bodies had been sent back home, but it is what is being said by Mr. Borodai that should be seen.



Well I'm convinced the separatists are doing all the right things with this crash...

a reply to: dragonridr

See his radar contact flew behind the 777 than went to the crash sight and hivered. So i guess he figures Ukraime has harriers

I gather you mean hovered. I think that was most likely a bad translation, he probably meant "remained in the vicinity".

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: dragonridr

See his radar contact flew behind the 777 than went to the crash sight and hivered. So i guess he figures Ukraime has harriers

I gather you mean hovered. I think that was most likely a bad translation, he probably meant "remained in the vicinity".

Granted the interpreter they used could have made a mistake but than why was she even there. You would think the kremlin could afford a good one.

a reply to: Flatcoat

I gather you mean hovered. I think that was most likely a bad translation, he probably meant "remained in the vicinity".

So, you think that a military plane is going to hang around in a separatists held area knowing full well other planes have been shot down days before?

Not a very smart thing to do when you have become a target.

Here you can see the radar recording which has been used by Russia to proof that MH17 was followed, or that there was a SU-25 close to MH17.

I am seeing no such thing, what i see is a break up mid air, a few parts fall as soon as the aircraft is hit, other parts fall a little further, among those is the cockpit, the other part of the aircraft dives towards earth and hits the area which is the main site, but the tail breaks away earlier.

Have a look atthis page to see where the parts fell.

They show the radar returns of the last minutes in flight, there is no unknown aircraft seen nearby, or moving away after MH17 is hit and disappears from radar.
The circle which according to them indicates an unknown aircraft is a radar return of lighter and smaller debris falling, and the recording is stopped right before it disappears from radar as well.

How disgusting is this?

Seperatist causes social media storm by ‘posing in make-up looted from Malaysian Airlines crash site

a reply to: fatdeeman

Whats the big deal.

Killing people is OK for you. Talking about something worthless like mascara is not OK. Looting/stealing is in western culture. I find nothing strange here. The same happens in your country as well.

The complete sense of morality is dead in you.

While picking up stuff from crash scene may look offensive to you, Ukrainian/European/American mercenaries are killing people wantonly in East Ukraine. That does not shake you.

You are just a crazy. The very fact that USA/EU is supporting one side of a vicious war in Ukraine is horrible which goes unnoticed by all posters on this board.

Russia has every right to take any actions to ensure security of its nation. I completely support Russian actions against Ukraine.

originally posted by: GargIndia
Russia has every right to take any actions to ensure security of its nation. I completely support Russian actions against Ukraine.

Ukraine has that same right. Since Russia is shelling into Ukraine territory now I would think Ukraine should invoke chapter 7 un the UN charter and ask for nations to send military units to end Putin and his mad dash into the past.


I was under the impression that the area the flight went down in is controlled by pro Russian rebels. I also remember them, along with several members in these forums, who constantly preached that Crimea, East / South Ukraine were more or less Ethnic Russian dominant. The scene was also controlled by Pro Russian rebels as we know.

That tells me the looting occurred by either pro Russian rebels or the "ethnic Russians" in that area.

As for the remainder of your post, I really don't know where you get your information / learned history from, but wherever its from I would ask for a refund. I am at a loss to understanding your logic and comments, especially when it ignores facts and history.

As for the mercenary excuse don't forget Russian sent in Cossacks as well as Chechen terrorists to assist the rebels.

Had this incident been reversed and American military were looting the crime scene you would be screaming for bloody murder about it.

So how about we speak of the dead with some respect. Stealing belongings from people who are dead is disrespectful. Dismissing it is sad and justifying it in the manner you did is appalling.

Out of curiosity why do you think the rebels are again refusing to allow investigators access to the crash scene?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ever notice the huge double standard Putin supporter have it amazes me sometimes. They call Ukraine fascist yet Put is following Hitlers play book exactly. Blame a group start a war take territory to stop atrocities and dont forget to crack down on the media so you can control it. Its ok to Shell Ukraine from Russia but they screamed and yelled when a rocket came over the border. Claim there Helping ethnic Russians from being oppressed and discriminated against but they move into the area and do the same to the Ukrainians. They open there borders up and allow heavy equipment to cross there border including rocket launchers. But yet yell at Ukraine telling them they need to control the separatists and how its their responsibility to provide safety for its citizens. They take every opportunity to show right sector in Ukraine but ignore the huge right wing influence in Russia. They claim Ukraine is ruled by oligarchs again ignoring so is Russia they just happen to be Putins pals. Than even Viktor Yanukovych president and removed by illegal coup but the moment he regretted Russian involvement his disappeared not a peep from him.

I can keep going on and on at the double standards and all the fake reasons for involvement but my question at this point is my god is Putin paying Russians or are they that scared because i know their not stupid.

a reply to: dragonridr

I apologize for the extremely long post.

From what I have researched Putin is popular based on their media distortion about whats going on in the world and who is to blame. If people check up on Russian State media and the massive changes Putin has and still is making to them its no wonder they are in the dark.

Putin has made great strides in terms of clamping down on independent media while reforming what was left into its old Soviet style setup. There is nothing wrong with national pride, except when it goes from national pride to ethnocentric discrimination. While those who don't care much for the west have constantly pointed out the west's arrogance and how it behaves to "non western" nations, they ignore the fundamental point that what they decry is occurring in Russia as well. The evidence for that argument is based on the posts we see in these forums.

Suggesting Ukraine just give up and allow Russia to take them over, how much more superior Russia is to this or that. When the Soviet Union collapsed and the Russian form of Democracy was put in its place, I think people assumed that because Russia is now Democratic in nature, they would behave like a western nation.

You are not going to get rid of the old Soviet mindset in the time from collapse to the present. You still have a large chunk of citizens who lived under the Soviet system and are well aware of how that system works. You still have people who were a fixture in the old Soviet style government who are now in power. So long as people with that mindset keep getting elected in Russia, it drags out this old cold war paranoia.

Russian paranoia towards the US results in American resolve towards Russia. The funny thing is you can take that analogy and reverse it and it still works.

There was a reason both countries setup the red phone.
There was a reason both countries are members of the open sky agreement.
There are reasons both countries have military attaches in place.
There is a reason both countries worked together on terrorism.
There is a reason both countries cooperated with each other in space.
There is a reason both countries signed the NPT.

The US and Russia can blame each other all they want. The fact remains Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a government that was elected by the people. I think its time citizens on both sides stand up to their governments and tell them to go have a cold war on their own and to leave those who want peace alone.

I think we could advance faster and develop real solutions that affect all people on this planet if we all saw each others as humans and not russian, american, british, south african, brazilian, federated states of micronesia etc etc etc.

There is way more that unites us than divides us.

To borrow a quote from a sci fi favorite -

You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

Chancellor Gorkon:

Whats interesting about Star Trek VI is the foundation the movie was based on. I doubt many people know this but Star Trek VI was the cold war between the US (Federation) and Russia (Klingons). The explosion of praxis resulted in the Klingon's being unable to maintain their military and deal with the economic issues at the same time. Praxis is the Soviet economy and with its destruction came the collapse of the USSR.

The quote above is talking about how the generation that grew up during the cold war, where they were taught not to trust the US / USSR, will have the hardest time accepting the fact they are not each others enemy anymore.

The scenes after Gorkons death on the klingon home world symbolized the transition from old to new. Where you had people who saw the writing on the wall that change was needed while the old guard was pushing for war because they thought peace would spell the end of the country. The old guard on the federation (US/West) side didnt want to help the Klingon'a (USSR) because they feared peace would result in being infiltrated by the "enemy".

Peace did finally come between the UFP and Klingons. However it was not until centuries later that the non trust / paranoia issues were overcome.

Anyways, sorry for the ramblings. Ive been thinking about the Ukraine situation and for some reason while trying to find some answers and perspective did I remember the above.

The answer will not be found at the end of a rifle.


Spending hundreds of billions up to trillions of dollars by nations that goes to the military could be better spent dealing with the problems that resulted in the large defense budgets in the first place.

I would rather see that money going into things that matter on a long term perspective.

I am a human being first and an American second. It really should be as simple as that in order to bring peace. You guys make think im goofy bringing star trek into this. From my point of view it offers a possible solution to this mess.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Very nice i like that i now promote you to ambassador. On a more serious note i thought the internet was changing things being if yo u have access you can find information. Surprisingly at least for me propaganda still works for governments we see it in Ukraine. We have Ukrainians who have been scared by Kiev that billions of Russians are just hiding right over the border ready to storm into Eastern Ukraine to put them under their control think the separatists believed this for a while as well. Than Moscow convinced its people that Ukrainian were evil fascists ready to start world war 3 and were going to exterminate Russians. It really does amaze me the power of propaganda like in the Malaysian flight Kiev is screaming and yelling how the separatists are handling it but in reality if the situation was reversed they wouldnt have handled it much better. The only difference is they know better than restrict access to the international community. But i think even that is Putins fault and not them per se. Putin believes in controlling information hes former KGB. Really same problem Bush had but he couldnt get the press to play nice with him.

I was kind of hoping this downing would cause both sides to step back and ask what are we doing but it appears this isnt going to happen. Now for our Russian friends despite what you have been told the US didnt have a plot against Russia. In fact even many US citizens actually loved Putin hes straight forward (well used to be)and that is severely lacking in US politics. In the US they started looking at Russia as a friend an dare i say ally. They were assisting with Afghanistan even volunteered to help with Syria than something changed. Really not sure why i know he has his reasons but i really cant understand his true motive with Ukraine. What ever it was he dreamed up this whole scenario where Americans were going to sneal into Russia and eat your babies and were looking to destroy Russia. The whole scenario is insane you think the US gave alot to Ukraine after the break up the money they spent on Russia makes Ukraine look like pocket change. You dont spend that kind of money on a country you want to destroy.