Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: GargIndia
Kind of laughable pointing out the "naked involvement of USA in Ukrainian affairs" when there's a Russia-backed rebellion going on......
all countries have some "involvement in the affairs" of others - what was Putin's $15 billion bribe not to go into the EU if not "naked involvement"??

The Euro-Maidan was brought about by active sabotage bu USA. This is naked involvement.

News outlets of Ukraine are taken over by Americans.

Americans spies have saturated Ukraine. Poroshenko is American stooge.

What more do you want.

The rebellion was in Kiev, which resulted in civil war.

You must learn a little English. There is a difference in "rebellion" and "civil war".

a reply to: GargIndia
some actual evidence would be good, rather than just you saying so - there are lots of threads on here from that time that discuss US involvement - you should post to one of those or start a new one to rehash all this debunked nonsense because it is off topic here.

The rebellion was in Kiev, which resulted in civil war.

You must learn a little English. There is a difference in "rebellion" and "civil war".

You should learn more English - the Maiden protests were protests, not rebellion.

a reply to: GargIndia

If you read and understood history you would have noted Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet Premier in the mid 1950's. The territory belongs to Ukraine. If we go further back to Catherine the Great you would notice that prior to Russia conquering the area it belonged to the Ottoman Empire / Turkey.

You would also have learned that Stalin did his best to remove / exterminate the Tartars.. Just as Stalin did to the german citizens living in sovereign German land russia calls kaliningrad.

Besides, the reason russian invaded was to protect ethnic Russians right? You know, those ethnic russians that are somehow more important than ethnic russians in the south and east of Ukraine.

If we use your logic then Russia should have no issues giving Kaliningrad back to the GErmans.

originally posted by: GargIndia
Some posters thinks that USA will destroy Russia.

I see Russian empire surviving the next great war while I do not see USA surviving this war.

The sanctions will only make Russia stronger militarily.

Only fools blabber about power.

The real strong are always realist.

Putin has given a direction to Russia. This is the direction Russia will take.

and yet almost all the pro russians on this site constantly state russia is stronger than the rest of the world, has super duper magic nuclear weapons that dont cross state borders.

Do you realize how out of touch you look when you "advise" a sovereign nation to just give in to Putins vanity?

The only people discussing war, and actively trying to start one, are russian supporters and russia themselves.

I weep for the Russian people trapped under Putin.

a reply to: GargIndia

Yet no evidence has ever been produced blaming the US.

Secondly, I thought the whole thing came about because of a nonsense language bill and ethnic russians.

changing the excuses / justifications again I see.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: GargIndia

If you read and understood history you would have noted Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet Premier in the mid 1950's. The territory belongs to Ukraine. If we go further back to Catherine the Great you would notice that prior to Russia conquering the area it belonged to the Ottoman Empire / Turkey.

You would also have learned that Stalin did his best to remove / exterminate the Tartars.. Just as Stalin did to the german citizens living in sovereign German land russia calls kaliningrad.

Besides, the reason russian invaded was to protect ethnic Russians right? You know, those ethnic russians that are somehow more important than ethnic russians in the south and east of Ukraine.

If we use your logic then Russia should have no issues giving Kaliningrad back to the GErmans.

That was the beginning excuse but it faded when all the ethnic Russians were shown by the UN to be torturing and well lets not forget killing people. for being non Russian. Lets not forget the abductions oh ant the extortion at gun point. Remember they decided to help themselves to cars etc. Its almost over however at this point they have pushed into rebel held territory with the gains the Ukrainians have been making over in about two weeks at most. Though apparently the separatists have started shelling from Russia on to there troop positions odd the Russians haven't noticed.

And finally back to the thread itself now the rebels are no longer allowing anyone back to the area of the crash site. After the bodies were delivered they cut off access to the area.

Monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and experts from Malaysia want to continue searching a debris field spanning several miles for human remains. "There's a lot of heavy debris still out there," spokesman Michael Bociurkiw said, "and we're not quite sure what could be underneath."
Sergey Bochkovskiy, the head of Ukraine's State Emergency Services, said Thursday that "terrorists" cut off access to the area after the train carrying remains from the crash site to Kharkiv left the crash site.

Officials: Rebels hinder effort to recover bodies from MH17 crash site

a reply to: dragonridr

My guess would be to prevent the truth from coming out. Either that or they are not finished tampering / destroying evidence while possibly bringing items into the site to make the incident look like something its not.

I would say in a few days we will see an announcement from the rebels or russia that they found air to air missile debris and will try and put it on Ukraine.

They are doing everything you do to perpetrate a coverup.

I am not sure if its posted already, but russian government released a video with the buk missile that destroyed the airplane... You can see it all.

link

Its very clear what happened, now that the boeing story is over, the KIEV government fall... they go for ellections! They didnt make it.

originally posted by: Ploutonas
I am not sure if its posted already, but russian government released a video with the buk missile that destroyed the airplane... You can see it all.

link

Its very clear what happened, now that the boeing story is over, the KIEV government fall... they go for ellections! They didnt make it.

That wasn't the russian government who uploaded!

I'm all for proving the truth, but seriosuly this video is vague.

a reply to: whitepanther999

Well the article, doesnt state clear who gave it in public, but it says its what russian claimed about it and probably they also had this video as a proof and they released it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: flibblebee

And it's concentrated. It has to be above a certain concentration to burn. When the wings break open, the fuel isn't going to sit there in some cloud, magically burning. It's going to disperse and drop below that concentration required to burn, and it's not going to burn.

Its never the fuel it self that is ignited. It is the fumes (the gass) emitted from the fuel mixed With air that is ignited.

If a BUK did this. There would be a lot of very hot chrapnal flying around and penetrating what ever it hits at a very high speed. The fuel and gasses would not have had time to disappear.

The shrapnal is already present With the fuel and gasses before it leaves its Storage holders.

If the MH17 was hit from a front left angle, the shrapnal would pass from the front left to the rear right. Right in the trail of extorted fuel and gass fumes.

a reply to: spy66

You simply do not know that the missile (assuming....) did that much damage to the wings.

Given the Russian radar plots and the analysis of the wreckage positions on the ground as per the diagram below it looks like he wings kept flying for a while - so they were probably not damaged enough to disintegrate from the impact - perhaps the fuel tanks weren't actually hit at all... that will have to be determined from examination of the wreckage - if at all.



from here - the trajectory analysis how the front end of the aircraft (cockpit & business) might have detached to fall several kilometers from the "main" wreckage site - consistent with the front end being he "2nd aircraft" on the Russian radar plot.

a reply to: Ploutonas

Err...no. There's nothing to show that this was the MH17 missile in the first place, and as comments on the YT version of it show the type of satellite that it is claimed to be apparently does not take real time video like this.

Given Russia's rubbish propaganda already I think it will take a lot more than a grainy video of dubious origin to justify your conclusion.

The Ukrainian parliament is going to elections, as someone said - to get rid of the pro-Russian deputies who continue to stop funding the armed forces and prevent foreign investment in Ukraine's gas industry - stonewalling these activities is weakening Ukraine for their Russian masters - ht new government seems unlikely to have to bother with them any more - I can't see too many pro-Russian deputies being returned any more - if only because the rebels won't let the elections proceed in the areas they control....which are the areas that might be expected to elect such people!!

Oh the irony!!

Also of course with a general election all the BS propaganda about the "unelected government in Kiev" becomes even more stupid.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: spy66

You simply do not know that the missile (assuming....) did that much damage to the wings.

Given the Russian radar plots and the analysis of the wreckage positions on the ground as per the diagram below it looks like he wings kept flying for a while - so they were probably not damaged enough to disintegrate from the impact - perhaps the fuel tanks weren't actually hit at all... that will have to be determined from examination of the wreckage - if at all.

from here - the trajectory analysis how the front end of the aircraft (cockpit & business) might have detached to fall several kilometers from the "main" wreckage site - consistent with the front end being he "2nd aircraft" on the Russian radar plot.

I am a bit confused now. Weren't most of the penetrating damage on the left side?

This illustartion show the missile hit the right side?

The illustration show that the MH17 was hit on the right side. Why would the MH17 bank to the left and fall North?

a reply to: spy66

The illustration is indicative only - they obviously have not done an impact analysis from the wreckage!!

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: spy66

The illustration is indicative only - they obviously have not done an impact analysis from the wreckage!!

I think it is very important to know which side of the MH17 the missile hit. Because that have to add up With the missile flight path.

Let's assume the Russians did track something else close to M17, would they be able to tell the difference between a su 25 and the nose section of the plane falling? Would they have similar radar cross sections? Could the nose falling appear similar to a plane that's decreasing altitude?

My initial feeling is that you couldn't confuse one with the other but then again if the nose followed a relatively straight path and just decreased altitude as it fell I suppose it could me mistaken for a small aircraft maneuvering.

This plane in two parts theory in one of those things that can be interpreted different ways. On the one hand a separated section of the plane showing up separately on the radar makes a lot of sense, more sense than a su 25 being sent to shoot down a 777 but on the other hand I would have expected it to have a different radar characteristic to a su 25 but again I'm not qualified to make that call.

Did the Russians say the su 25 was behind the 777?

I suppose a detached section could show up as being another craft BEHIND and BELOW the 777 gradually losing altitude and decreasing speed which may well look like a fighter plane backing off after an engagement but still following to assess what happens.

originally posted by: fatdeeman

This plane in two parts theory in one of those things that can be interpreted different ways. On the one hand a separated section of the plane showing up separately on the radar makes a lot of sense, more sense than a su 25 being sent to shoot down a 777 but on the other hand I would have expected it to have a different radar characteristic to a su 25 but again I'm not qualified to make that call.

Its possible but i think they said they tracked it for a couple of minutes which wouldnt be possible.