Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: AstralTrespass

Once again, do you or anyone here have anything to indicate that the aircraft was off course?

NO, you have a computer graphic.

Unless you work in the flight operations department at MAL, then you do NOT know what the official planned route was.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ukrainian air defense units at this point is not, and we do not use tools in the area of ​​air defense ATO.

. . . But Ukrainian military DOES have Buks in the area.

Even though separatists have NO aircraft.

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ukrainian air defense units at this point is not, and we do not use tools in the area of ​​air defense ATO.

. . . But Ukrainian military DOES have Buks in the area.

Even though separatists have NO aircraft.

That would be because Russia aircraft have engaged Ukrainian aircraft in that are. People seem to forget the fact Russia has troops back near the border. They have stationed fighter aircraft in Crimea. Trying to use pro Russian rebels not having aircraft as no justification for a sams being there ignores Russia's actions just a week prior.

When Russia invaded Ukraine Crimea they sent in helicopters and airplanes. Lets also not forget you have Russian forces in Moldova as well as Belarus.

While Putin has stated he has ruled out direct military intervention in Ukraine, and with all due respect, means nothing. Putin has just lied to many times to be taken at his word. Because of that there is no reason to not have sams in areas all across Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Do the Ukrainian military have SAMs in the Donetsk region? I don't know if they do. They surely have them in the country but wether they are in a position to be in range, i.e. deployed in that region I do not know.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Before I go any further in debates with you, please answer my question:

"What are your thoughts that Ukraine officials are saying separatists didn't have functional Buks?"


. . . Since I've been so kindly to answer your question.

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Xcathdra

Before I go any further in debates with you, please answer my question:

"What are your thoughts that Ukraine officials are saying separatists didn't have functional Buks?"


. . . Since I've been so kindly to answer your question.

I thought I did when I linked to the Ukraine Pravda article in question that addressed the issue. Russian media took his comments out of context. So unless im missing something?

My own source (ITAR-TASS) that I used also stated they were not sure of the functionality of the weapons. Being not sure does not mean they are non functional. Based on the evidence I would say the BUK's they had were functional.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Also if you're gonna post up a pravda.ua site @ least do it where I can see all the facts. The only thing that I see is about martial law due to separatists. . .


. . . Since I've already answered your question:

That would be because Russia aircraft have engaged Ukrainian aircraft in that are. People seem to forget the fact Russia has troops back near the border. They have stationed fighter aircraft in Crimea. Trying to use pro Russian rebels not having aircraft as no justification for a sams being there ignores Russia's actions just a week prior.

Do you have any FACTS to back that up beyond 'engaging'? Also didn't Russia just get their territory shelled a few times from the Ukrainian military? 3 times I believe.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Xcathdra

Before I go any further in debates with you, please answer my question:

"What are your thoughts that Ukraine officials are saying separatists didn't have functional Buks?"


. . . Since I've been so kindly to answer your question.

I thought I did when I linked to the Ukraine Pravda article in question that addressed the issue. Russian media took his comments out of context. So unless im missing something?

My own source (ITAR-TASS) that I used also stated they were not sure of the functionality of the weapons. Being not sure does not mean they are non functional. Based on the evidence I would say the BUK's they had were functional.

Being NOT-sure is called: SPECULATION

Again:

"What are your thoughts that Ukraine officials are saying separatists didn't have functional Buks?"

originally posted by: SurrenderingAmerica
a reply to: Xcathdra

Ukrainian air defense units at this point is not, and we do not use tools in the area of ​​air defense ATO.

. . . But Ukrainian military DOES have Buks in the area.

Even though separatists have NO aircraft.

According the the NYT, on Wednesday July 16, the Ukrainians claimed a Russian MIG-29 crossed the border and shot down a Su-25:

On Wednesday evening, Ukraine said Russia had sent a MIG-29 fighter jet across the border to engage with Ukrainian Su-25s. In the ensuing dogfight, one Su-25 was shot down, while another was damaged but escaped.

NYT

Even if this is not true, the Ukrainians having an air defense is not that strange is it? Consider that the Crimea has been annexed by Russia and pro-Russian forces are operating in the Eastern Ukraine.

a reply to: ionwind

With the utmost respect -- NYT has gotten a few things incorrect during this 'conflict', which had to be later retracted.

a reply to: NickDC202

Day 3

France and Ukraine warn over plane crash site obstructions

Paris (AFP) - The French and Ukrainian presidents said Saturday that any obstruction preventing international investigators reaching the crash site of flight MH17 will "not be tolerated".

Following a phone call with his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko, President Francois Hollande said the two had agreed "on the importance of establishing the facts" of what happened to the Malaysian Airlines plane, which crashed in the rebel-held east of Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 on board.

"To this end, no obstruction to the work of the international observers from the ICAO (the United Nations' International Civil Aviation Organization) will be tolerated," they said in a statement released by the Elysee palace.

Pro-Russian separatists hindered access to the crash site on Saturday, with international monitors trying to access the scene met by Kalashnikov-wielding militias who allowed them access to only the outskirts of the field.

Click link for remainder of article.

Pro Russia rebels have again denied access to the site.

Just wanted to add to this, I am so mad at the Ukrainian president right now. I have read he asked the UN to declare the pro-russians in Donetk and Luhansk "terrorists". So a plane with 300 people gets shot down over your country, all of them die and what do you do?

"They are not labelled as terrorists, this is what's stopping us from securing access to the crash site!". Does this make sense?

Where is Ukraine's army, you have a new president now, you have a working government, if they can't quell the separatist movement, they're no good.

What steps did Ukraine take to secure international access to the site of this tragedy? Is it normal for scores of experts to be held up in Kyev, waiting for the ok from a "rebel" leader?

a reply to: SurrenderingAmerica

Speculation?

That cuts both ways - IE functional and not functional. You are speculating, based on info, that the BUK did not work. I am speculating, based on info, that it did work.

Secondly I answered your question - Several times now so im not sure what it is you are wanting.

I told you the Russian article took what the Ukraine said out of context. If the rebels were strictly using a captured Ukraine BUK that is not operational then you might have something. However the item in the rebels possession, according to the same Ukrainian the Russians took out of context, is they have their items accounted for.

For further speculation the rebel commander is Russian so its also not out of the realm that the rebels captured a non functional BUK only to have Russians fix it on scene (that's based on Putin admitting he had forces in Crimea with no insignias helping and the fact Ukraine authorities have arrested Russians crossing into Ukraine to assist the rebels).

Do we know the rebels had a BUK system - Yup
Do we know if it was operational at the time it fell into their possession? Nope
Do we know if it was repaired if it were non functional? Nope
Did it work when it brought the plane down? Yup

a reply to: negue

Respectfully blaming the Ukraine government for non access to the scene is a bit off. The rebels should have guaranteed protection and allowed investigators in. Instead they seem bent on destroying evidence, and for a 3rd day now they have denied access to the scene.

What steps did Ukraine take to secure international access to the site of this tragedy? Is it normal for scores of experts to be held up in Kyev, waiting for the ok from a "rebel" leader?

Apathy and cowardice. Ukraine will on the bottom of the ladder, just one rung above these rebels. Quite obvious these people could care less about what happened other than saying 'not me'.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Did it work when it brought the plane down? Yup

So now your just making stuff up? No-one knows what brought that plane down yet. Also I asked you a few pages back. did the rebels also have a working radar vehicle that's required for the BUK system?

Vice News on the incident

WARNING VERY GRAPHIC!!

Obama: Evidence MH17 Hit By Missile From Rebel-Held Area Of Ukraine

"We assess Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 ... was likely downed by a surface-to-air [SAM] missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine," she said.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I believe this is all happening in Ukraine. Hence the reason the Dutch PM asked Ukraine to help bring home the bodies of Holland citizens.

a reply to: ~Lucidity


Great, release phrased like opinion not facts. Good job NSA and Pentagon. If they don't know (which I doubt), once again, why is all this money spent on spying and monitor system be spent for, other than political and corporate gain.