Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

The FBI and NTSB as well as their Russian Federation counterparts should be PROHIBITED from taking part in the investigation of MA17.

If the US and Russia are both calling for a fair, independent investigation, that means that their own agencies must be completely barred from participation.

a reply to: Psynic

SO you are categorically denying that any mistreatment of the site, and or the victims has happened?

DO you have proof of this, or is this just based on "what you have seen photographed'?

Seems a bold statement to make, especially with so many reports, including reports of the CVR and DFDR being removed and sent to Moscow.

originally posted by: Adaluncatif
Ask yourself this question: Do I trust the media and government?

When you have two nations (United States & Russia) with essentially State-run media, it is incredibly difficult to decipher the facts...

It is astonishing the way MA 17 is being covered by the media; I may not know all the evidence but I believe there are key questions that need to be answered... Frankly I find the media and US & Russian governments declaration of "this is what happened" before any investigation has begun and any data analyzed to be highly suspect and very troubling.

originally posted by: NickDC202
If the US and Russia are both calling for a fair, independent investigation, that means that their own agencies must be completely barred from participation.

The subsequent investigation will not be fair nor complete.

The Pro Russian rebels made sure of that by treating the crime scene in the manner they are. I find it interesting that people claim the Ukrainians were targeting ethnic Russians only to see that just about every incident involving Pro Russian rebels show them to be unprofessional hate filled NTAC 2.0 compliant russian wannabes.

The pro russians actions are further proof that the ethnic russian justification used was without merit.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Again, im not. I told you to reread your posts and look at your position in those posts. You clampoed onto the flight path deviation and dog text pretty hard.

Explain to me how any of those those train of thoughts suggest that I proclaim the pro Russians to be innocent.

The problem is your own shortsightedness.

Refute the facts and stop attacking the poster.

Yes hide behind that and hope someone will come to your rescue.

originally posted by: NickDC202

originally posted by: Adaluncatif
Ask yourself this question: Do I trust the media and government?

When you have two nations (United States & Russia) with essentially State-run media, it is incredibly difficult to decipher the facts...

It is astonishing the way MA 17 is being covered by the media; I may not know all the evidence but I believe there are key questions that need to be answered... Frankly I find the media and US & Russian governments declaration of "this is what happened" before any investigation has begun and any data analyzed to be highly suspect and very troubling.

i have to ask -
How is the MSM in the US state run? I ask because I see people make this claim yet they can never support it with facts. Where as the Russia media is listed as state controlled.

a reply to: NickDC202

watch Vice News

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: fatdeeman

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: fatdeeman
It just seems inherently wrong that people's dead relatives are being poked with sticks by rebel soldiers...

What's next?

Are you going to claim they've been urinating on them too?

It was a figure of speech......

It was inflammatory rhetoric.

No one is "poking with sticks".

All I've seen is humble rural people who have placed sheets over the deceased out of RESPECT.

Something you obviously have NO concept of.

Well then you're closing your eyes to what's there for all to see aren't you? It's not my fault if you refuse to see the truth.

originally posted by: AstralTrespass
a reply to: Xcathdra
Explain to me how any of those those train of thoughts suggest that I proclaim the pro Russians to be innocent.

If you dont understand what you type and the manner you portray your position, then that is something for you to work on. You have made posts that dismiss rebel actions as a possible source.

originally posted by: AstralTrespass
The problem is your own shortsightedness.

Refute the facts and stop attacking the poster.

originally posted by: AstralTrespass

Yes hide behind that and hope someone will come to your rescue.

Actually I say it to try and get through to you that the best way to make an argument is to refute the facts instead of attacking the poster. Attacking a poster generally implies the person cannot refute the facts.

So if you are right and I am wrong, then you should have no issues supporting your position with facts minus the attack on the poster.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: NickDC202
If the US and Russia are both calling for a fair, independent investigation, that means that their own agencies must be completely barred from participation.

The subsequent investigation will not be fair nor complete.

The Pro Russian rebels made sure of that by treating the crime scene in the manner they are. I find it interesting that people claim the Ukrainians were targeting ethnic Russians only to see that just about every incident involving Pro Russian rebels show them to be unprofessional hate filled NTAC 2.0 compliant russian wannabes.

The pro russians actions are further proof that the ethnic russian justification used was without merit.

It is troubling that you've reached such adamant conclusions based only on a few minutes of video footage and some photos.

Frankly I was disturbed that the reporter for ABC's Good Morning America thought it was a good idea to be standing literally in the middle of the wreckage during his live shot; when one is reporting on the neglect of the bodies and the accident site(s) one shouldn't be essentially standing on bodies for his live shot.

None of us know exactly what happened and investigators have just begun to arrive at the site(s), it would be much more prudent to allow them to begin to do their jobs before we the masses of untrained accident investigators determine what happened and posting it here.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You have made posts that dismiss rebel actions as a possible source.

I say qoute those posts and stop this discussion.

Either you qoute them if they exist and you will be right, or you don't qoute them because they don't exist which would make me right.

Refute the facts

You have to come up with facts for me to refute, first.

originally posted by: JakiusFogg
a reply to: NickDC202

watch Vice News

I appreciate the suggestion, thank you. However as much as I like much of their work, Vice's long history of not being above board in their news reports and investigations causes me to watch their news reports with much skepticism.

Rebels deny access to disaster site

rebels hamper access to plane crash site

OSCE monitors unable to access crash site

These actions say a lot to me.....

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Psynic
More inflammatory rhetoric.

Neither - its fact.

originally posted by: Psynic
Poor Ukrainian farmers are not stealing the credit cards of deceased victims.

Did they say farmers were?

originally posted by: Psynic
If a bank learns of the death of a credit card holder they are OBLIGATED to cancel their account.

No really, they are not.

originally posted by: Psynic
Allegations of the abuse of corpses is an age old propaganda ploy.

A ploy pro russians use which apparently you have no issues with. Like crucifying the 3 year old boy, the mass graves that are being portrayed as being in ukraine instead of the former yugoslavia.

Why is it ok for Russia / Pro Russia to use the very tactics you disdain?

originally posted by: Psynic
Undisturbed bodies covered in bedspreads and linen is the ONLY treatment I have seen photographed.

Oh, so then the reports must not be true then right?

originally posted by: Psynic
Claiming atrocities where NONE existed is an ATROCITY itself being perpetrated on the families, friends, countrymen and all CIVILIZED society who truly care about the deceased.

Like Russia and Pro Russians.

originally posted by: Psynic
To suggest otherwise is the HATE SPEECH of someone promoting war.

Using the term NAZGAURD is hate speech. Referring to all Ukrainians who are not pro Russian as Nazi's is hate speech. Referring to the elected Kiev government as a junta is hate speech.

See how that works on both sides of this argument?

Where do you get this foulness and disgusting evil that you are introducing to this thread

"Crucifying a three year old boy" !!!!!!!

"Nazguard" !!!!!

What kind of person are you?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: NickDC202

originally posted by: Adaluncatif
Ask yourself this question: Do I trust the media and government?

When you have two nations (United States & Russia) with essentially State-run media, it is incredibly difficult to decipher the facts...

It is astonishing the way MA 17 is being covered by the media; I may not know all the evidence but I believe there are key questions that need to be answered... Frankly I find the media and US & Russian governments declaration of "this is what happened" before any investigation has begun and any data analyzed to be highly suspect and very troubling.

i have to ask -
How is the MSM in the US state run? I ask because I see people make this claim yet they can never support it with facts. Where as the Russia media is listed as state controlled.

The answer to your question would cause thread drift if I post it here, however I promise to write up what I anticipate will be a lengthy, thoughtful response and private message it to you if that is ok. :-)

originally posted by: NickDC202
It is troubling that you've reached such adamant conclusions based only on a few minutes of video footage and some photos.

Its troubeling that you dont seem to be aware that the rebels have held the crash site for more than 2 days now without allowing access to it. Thats not from a few minutes of videos, that's from the inspection groups being denied full access.

originally posted by: NickDC202
Frankly I was disturbed that the reporter for ABC's Good Morning America thought it was a good idea to be standing literally in the middle of the wreckage during his live shot; when one is reporting on the neglect of the bodies and the accident site(s) one shouldn't be essentially standing on bodies for his live shot.

I agree - Its even more concerning that rebels will allow media in but not the investigation teams.

originally posted by: NickDC202
None of us know exactly what happened and investigators have just begun to arrive at the site(s), it would be much more prudent to allow them to begin to do their jobs before we the masses of untrained accident investigators determine what happened and posting it here.

They are being denied access to the entire scene. Rebels have been removing items and bodies.

If the Rebels did not do this then there is no reason for them to loot / rummage through the wreckage like vikings attacking a sea front village.

What the world is waiting on is for the rebels to get out of the way to experts can do their job. Apparently the rebels think the PR angle of allowing media into an area where their are still bodies while Russia / Pro Russians use the media coverage to their advantage.

a reply to: AstralTrespass

I did..

You apparently are not bothering to reread what you have posted. When you go back and read those, come back and join us. We will be discussing the topic using facts.

originally posted by: Psynic
Where do you get this foulness and disgusting evil that you are introducing to this thread

"Crucifying a three year old boy" !!!!!!!

"Nazguard" !!!!!

What kind of person are you?

A person who posted that information to demonstrate the Pro Russian / Russian propaganda push on Ukraine. Those terms came from the Pro Russians / Russians when speaking about Ukraine.

Also, its a chat forum.. Any chance you can tone down the drama by a factor of 10? Please take the time to read the posts and understand them so we dont keep getting pulled off topic by your responses.

a reply to: Xcathdra

It is funny that you actually think you are capable.

originally posted by: AstralTrespass
a reply to: Xcathdra

It is funny that you actually think you are capable.

Refute the facts and stop attacking the poster