Russian jet shoots down Ukrainian warplane over Ukraine

A Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter plane that was on military operations over the east of Ukraine, where government forces are fighting to quell a pro-Russian separatist rebellion, a Ukrainian military spokesman said on Thursday.

in.reuters.com...

Uh-oh...if this is true, this would be a major escalation of the conflict.

It would seem that Russians are upping the ante, after the U.S. announced new sanctions yesterday. They have been baiting and goading the Ukranians to "do something" that they can turn around and use as justification for a full scale assault on Eastern Ukraine.

I wonder how the Ukranians...and the West...will react to this latest provocation.

a reply to: mobiusmale

Uh-oh...if this is true, this would be a major escalation of the conflict.

Certainly an escalation in cost. I wonder if Zaphod is going to show up and tell us what that bird was worth. $11 mil?

a reply to: mobiusmale
To be honest, I don't know what took them so long, but it was expected since civilians died in Ukraine's offensive and nobody gives a crap.

a reply to: Snarl

According to a couple of online sources, an SU-25 is worth about $11 - 12 million...

I am sure its replacement cost is a lot higher than this.

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown
a reply to: mobiusmale
To be honest, I don't know what took them so long, but it was expected since civilians died in Ukraine's offensive and nobody gives a crap.

I certainly expected to see something from Russia, after they alleged that a Ukranian artillery shell had hit inside of Russian territory.

It was the third reported incident this week in which a Ukrainian plane has been hit by a missile.

Kiev has said that an An-26 military transporter was brought down last Monday probably by a missile fired from Russia, either from the air or from the ground. Two out of the eight people on board that plane were killed, the Ukrainian military said.

On Wednesday, another SU-25 was hit by a rebel missile but the pilot brought the plane down successfully with relatively slight damage. Kiev did not allege Russian involvement in that case.

This third incident would be the most serious, if Ukraine can prove that it was indeed an air-to-air missile strike,

originally posted by: mobiusmale

A Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter plane that was on military operations over the east of Ukraine, where government forces are fighting to quell a pro-Russian separatist rebellion, a Ukrainian military spokesman said on Thursday.

in.reuters.com...

Uh-oh...if this is true, this would be a major escalation of the conflict.

It would seem that Russians are upping the ante, after the U.S. announced new sanctions yesterday. They have been baiting and goading the Ukranians to "do something" that they can turn around and use as justification for a full scale assault on Eastern Ukraine.

I wonder how the Ukranians...and the West...will react to this latest provocation.

As usual West would express deep concern and do nothing?

Realistically Ukrainians had to endure it, as they endured having Crimea annexed and mercenaries with heavy weapons sent in to their territory. I mean they can hit directly those mercenaries, but they would have to all the time avoid open confrontation with Russian army.

There are a few nice things that can be done:
-deportation of Putin and Lawrow daughters from the EU. (they wanted sanctions that would not hit common Russian people, right?)
-common EU energy policy, where Gazprom would have to haggle not with weak member states but with the EU.
-put whole Russian political class on no flight list.

I wouldn't call it sanctions as such by Putin is working hard to convince Finland and Sweden to join NATO.

a reply to: mobiusmale

plus the lost pilot if he is dead! I smell a nice long proxy war coming.

that is what Ukrainian side said.

news change - this is temporary news and the version will likely change soon.

it wouldn't necessarily mean escalation.

Turkey was bombing Syria on occasions, Israel was bombing targets in Syria and elsewhere without an escalation, USA is droning and bombing at will, France intervened some time ago in Mali and all without any declaration of war or escalation.

Of course, the situation is completely different in each and every case but my point is that there are no rules if ever there were rules in the world and world of warfare.

It could be that Russia just did it and nobody will do anything about it, militarily.

originally posted by: Shadow1024

As usual West would express deep concern and do nothing?

Realistically Ukrainians had to endure it, as they endured having Crimea annexed and mercenaries with heavy weapons sent in to their territory. I mean they can hit directly those mercenaries, but they would have to all the time avoid open confrontation with Russian army.

There are a few nice things that can be done:
-deportation of Putin and Lawrow daughters from the EU. (they wanted sanctions that would not hit common Russian people, right?)
-common EU energy policy, where Gazprom would have to haggle not with weak member states but with the EU.
-put whole Russian political class on no flight list.

I wouldn't call it sanctions as such by Putin is working hard to convince Finland and Sweden to join NATO.

Yes, the facts of the matter are that the Ukraine will be swallowed up by Russia one bite at a time, if that is what Putin has in mind...and there is very little (other than haughty remarks and ineffectual sanctioning) that the West can or will do about it.

Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, their piece on the global chessboard is just not important enough for the entire world to go to war over. The United States and/or NATO are not going to get into a real shooting war with Russia over Ukraine - and Putin knows it. So, he will just keep nibbling away...and keep angling things for (Russian) public consumption.

The real dangers likely lie beyond this current gambit...how big a bite of the former Soviet Union will he be allowed to take, before Western chest thumping would become something else?

a reply to: mobiusmale

Here's where I first read of this.

Ukraine: Air Force jet downed by Russian missile

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — An Air Force fighter jet has been shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from a Russian plane, a spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council said Thursday.

Andrei Lysenko also said Ukrainian troops had been fired upon by missiles from a village just inside Russia.

Officials in Kiev have recently accused Russia's armed forces of being directly implicated in attacks on Ukrainian troops battling an insurgency near the border.

Lysenko said in a televised briefing that the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet that was hit on Wednesday evening was forced to bail out after his jet was shot down. He provided no further details.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets.

The Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely.

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists in Ukraine or sowing unrest in its neighbor.

"Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists in Ukraine or sowing unrest in its neighbor."

Just like the initial troops (bearing no national flag or insignia of any kind on uniform) in Crimea were claimed by Putin to not be Russian, then going on to claim some time later, that indeed they were?

originally posted by: mobiusmale

originally posted by: Shadow1024

As usual West would express deep concern and do nothing?

Realistically Ukrainians had to endure it, as they endured having Crimea annexed and mercenaries with heavy weapons sent in to their territory. I mean they can hit directly those mercenaries, but they would have to all the time avoid open confrontation with Russian army.

There are a few nice things that can be done:
-deportation of Putin and Lawrow daughters from the EU. (they wanted sanctions that would not hit common Russian people, right?)
-common EU energy policy, where Gazprom would have to haggle not with weak member states but with the EU.
-put whole Russian political class on no flight list.

I wouldn't call it sanctions as such by Putin is working hard to convince Finland and Sweden to join NATO.

Yes, the facts of the matter are that the Ukraine will be swallowed up by Russia one bite at a time, if that is what Putin has in mind...and there is very little (other than haughty remarks and ineffectual sanctioning) that the West can or will do about it.

Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, their piece on the global chessboard is just not important enough for the entire world to go to war over. The United States and/or NATO are not going to get into a real shooting war with Russia over Ukraine - and Putin knows it. So, he will just keep nibbling away...and keep angling things for (Russian) public consumption.

The real dangers likely lie beyond this current gambit...how big a bite of the former Soviet Union will he be allowed to take, before Western chest thumping would become something else?

I have mixed feeling about this bit by bit. I mean Putin annexed the easiest part so far, and I think that even had a nasty surprise that Ukraine is so hard to swallow and some local people fight quite fiercely against his occupation. Even if he openly send army he clearly can't swallow western Ukraine, without having a long guerilla war.

NATO/EU is a line that he would not violate with impunity. Anything else seems as not being defended seriously.

The EU is deeply divided. The North (I mean Poland, Sweden or Balts) would not mind sending some common troops to defend Ukraine. The South would make any business with Putin, and recently Bulgaria had to be rebuked by EU Commission for the South Stream pipeline.

Anyway Putin has plenty of friends:
-northern EU + Ukraine + Turkey (for recent aggression)
-Romania/Moldovia, Georgia - for previous aggression and still lasting occupation of some small areas
-Caucasus (nice Muslim people, displeased about levelling Grozny and using concentration camps in '90s)
-Japan for Kurile Islands

I'm curious whether he would get once a pay day? (or more realistically those countries would look for a time of Russia weakness to have a noble role vultures)

originally posted by: demus
that is what Ukrainian side said.

it wouldn't necessarily mean escalation.

In the previous two cases of Ukrainian planes being hit by missiles, they were struck by surface-to-air missiles...which the separatists/rebels are known to have...so Russia could claim that they were not responsible for the attacks.

But, if a Russian fighter did in fact shoot down a Ukrainian fighter jet (and especially if the downed plane was flying in Ukraine airspace), then this would represent a direct state-to-state act of war.

So, in this sense, it would definitely be an escalation of the current conflict in Ukraine.

a reply to: mobiusmale

Since when killing people of some country isn't considered to be an act of war? I can tell you some other cases when two countries gotten into war for over a thousand citizens, not to mention what would happen if that number is 100-200 times bigger( like in this case ).

I think that Russia should have involved much earlier, because a duty of a single country is to protect it's citizens, no matter where they live.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: mobiusmale

Since when killing people of some country isn't considered to be an act of war? I can tell you some other cases when two countries gotten into war for over a thousand citizens, not to mention what would happen if that number is 100-200 times bigger( like in this case ).

I think that Russia should have involved much earlier, because a duty of a single country is to protect it's citizens, no matter where they live.

Are you saying that, prior to Russia inserting itself into the internal politics of Ukraine that 100-200,000 Ukraine citizens had been killed by their own Government?

Your last comment is certainly in keeping with the "party line" that Putin has used (and will use again)...that he must send troops in and subdue (various sections of) Ukraine so as to "protect" the Russian (speaking) people living there.

It is a simple formula really. Send in men and equipment to start trouble (but take off their flashes so nobody can tell they are actually Russians...ha ha). Then, when the Ukraine government acts to repel them and restore law and order, claim that Russian troops need to swoop in to "save" the people.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: mobiusmale

Since when killing people of some country isn't considered to be an act of war? I can tell you some other cases when two countries gotten into war for over a thousand citizens, not to mention what would happen if that number is 100-200 times bigger( like in this case ).

I think that Russia should have involved much earlier, because a duty of a single country is to protect it's citizens, no matter where they live.

Have mercy. No one accept this propaganda any more. Russia set a war without declaring it. This is typical for them. Remind me situation like in the beginning of IIWW when they attack us from the beck when we are facing German invasion. They never admitted that they invaded us to. They come to liberate the people killing hundreds of thousands.

No we are facing the same in Ukraine. People of Ukraine are calling for help but no one listening. Western Europe dont understand yet the if they let the Russians to this it would have a serious consequences for destabilisation all European Union. Without solidarity with Ukraine this would destroy the trust in Germany and France and this would shake the whole union. Countries such as Poland, Lithuania or Sweden stare in disbelief at how the French and the Germans discredit themselves blocking the firm response of Europe on this crisis.

In the last few days the situation in Ukraine has changed. Now its not the ordinary terrorist but regular invasion of Russian army on the territory of sovereign country. This cannot be left as it is now without response of the democratic part of the world if we believe in our values.

Ok here something that break this wide open

BREAKING NEWS
Reports says that a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 with 295 souls onboard has crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border.
We're currently trying to find the actual flight in our database. More information to come.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sounds like they took a page from the United States playbook. Unilateral actions. No Fly Zone. Let's not pretend Kiev isn't bombing civilians with heavy airpower. They actually make what Israel is doing right now look humane. I said this days ago on another thread. Expect Russia to bomb Ukraine to pieces without ever really invading them unless they have to. The United States has done it to countries with impunity for years. Russia doesn't even have to set up bases in other countries to do it. They can fire missiles from the comfort of their own borders. There will be no U.N. security council action. You forget they just formed BRICS? China isn't about to vote for sanctions against Russia.

One source says it's a 747, the other says warplane. One says Russia shot it, the other says the cause is under investigation...

a reply to: mobiusmale
What presumptious stupid thread title "Evidence plse"' it speaks volumes when all western anglo american world leaders are all reading from the same convoluted standard script on this!

a reply to: 74joff

How dare anybody ask for silly crap like evidence and facts?

Hey, what ever our guys in Ukraine say is made up and approved by US in the first place, end of story. What Kiev states is what US State Department states, same thing.

What ever they say, goes, that's whats up, and if anybody says otherwise - they are terrorists, and if they are Americans, they are Domestic terrorists.