Palestine is for the Palestinians ...only

a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali

That's a lie, and I proved it false with genetic testing. They are not simply European converts, their paternal DNA traces back to the Middle East.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali

That's a lie, and I proved it false with genetic testing. They are not simply European converts, their paternal DNA traces back to the Middle East.

I suggest u use your occams Razor to shave your ... beard

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

thats not what history and science say. I'm supposed to just take your word over history and science?

originally posted by: duesprimusvictorimmortali
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

thats not what history and science say. I'm supposed to just take your word over history and science?

What science? The numerous papers on genetic testing that prove it? How about you show me what science you talk about. I am not asking you to take my word I am asking you to believe ... wait for it .. science.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

here you go.

and this

Jews have been present in contemporary Armenia and Georgia since the Babylonian captivity (see also: Mountain Jews). Records exist from the 4th century showing that there were Armenian cities possessing Jewish populations ranging from 10,000 to 30,000 along with substantial Jewish settlements in the Crimea.[7] The presence of Jews in the territories corresponding to modern Belarus, Ukraine, and the European part of Russia can be traced back to the 7th-14th centuries CE.[8][9][9] Under the influence of the Caucasian Jewish communities (see also: Mountain Jews), Bulan, the Khagan Bek of the Khazars, and the ruling classes of Khazaria (located in what is now Ukraine, southern Russia and Kazakhstan), adopted Judaism at some point in the mid-to-late 8th or early 9th centuries. After the overthrow of the Khazarian kingdom by Sviatoslav I of Kiev (969), Khazar Jews may have fled in large numbers to the Crimea, the Caucasus, and the Russian principality of Kiev, which was formerly a part of the Khazar territory.

The conversion of Khazars to Judaism, though doubts persist,[88] is reported overwhelmingly by external sources and in the Khazar Correspondence, Hebrew documents whose authenticity was long doubted and challenged,[89] but specialists now widely accept them either as authentic or as reflecting internal Khazar traditions.[90][91][92][93] Archaeological evidence for conversion, on the other hand, remains elusive,[94] and may reflect either the incompleteness of excavations, or that the stratum of actual adherents was thin.[95] Conversion of steppe or peripheral tribes to a universal religion is fairly well attested phenomenon,[96] and the Khazar conversion to Judaism, though unusual, was not unique.[97][98] On Khazaria's southern flank, both Islam and Byzantine Christianity were proselytising great powers. Byzantine success in the north was sporadic, though Armenian and Albanian missions from Derbend built churches extensively in maritime Daghestan, then a Khazar district,[99] Buddhism also had exercised an attraction on leaders of both the Eastern (552-742) and Western Qağanates (552-659), the latter being the progenitor of the Khazar state.[100] In 682, according to the Armenian chronicle of Movsês Dasxuranc'i, the king of Caucasian Albania, Varaz Trdat, dispatched a bishop Israyêl to convert Caucasian "Huns" who were subject to the Khazars, and managed to bring Alp Ilut'uêr, a son-in-law of the Khazar qağan, and his army, to abandon their shamanizing cults and join the Christian fold.[101][102] The Arab Georgian martyr St Abo who converted to Christianity within the Khazar kingdom around 779-80, describes local Khazars as irreligious.[103] Some reports register a Christian majority at Samandar,[104] or Muslim majorities[105] in various areas of Khazaria. Also Jews from both the Islamic world and Byzantium are known to have migrated to Khazaria during periods of persecution under Heraclius, Justinian II, Leo III, and Romanus Lakapēnos.[106][107] The pattern is one of an elite conversion preceding large-scale adoption of the new religion by the general population, which often resisted the imposition.[100] One important condition for mass conversion was a settled urban state, where churches, synagogues or mosques provided a focus for religion, as opposed to the free nomadic lifestyle of life on the open steppes.[108] A tradition of the Iranian Judeo-Tats claims that their ancestors were responsible for the Khazar conversion.[109]

Both the date of the conversion, and the extent of its influence beyond the elite,[110] often minimized in scholarship,[111] are a matter of dispute,[112] but at some point between 740 CE and 920 CE, the Khazar royalty and nobility appear to have converted to Judaism, in part, it is argued, perhaps to deflect competing pressures from Arabs and Byzantines to accept either Islam or Orthodoxy.[113][114] Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (ca.860-870s) refers to them as descendants of Gog and Magog, who were circumcised and observed all the laws of Judaism.[115] New numismatic evidence of coins dated 837/8 bearing the inscriptions arḍ al-ḫazar (Land of the Khazars), or Mûsâ rasûl Allâh (Moses the messenger of God, in imitation of the Islamic coin phrase: Muḥammad rasûl Allâh) suggest to many the conversion took place in that decade.[116] Olsson argues that the 837/8 evidence marks only the beginning of a long and difficult official Judaization that concluded some decades later.[117] Another view holds that by the 10th century, while the royal clan officially claimed Judaism, a non-normative variety of Islamisation took place among the majority of Khazars.[118]

By the 10th century, the letter of King Joseph asserts that, after the royal conversion, "Israel returned (yashuvu yisra'el) with the people of Qazaria (to Judaism) in complete repentance (bi-teshuvah shelemah).[119] Persian historian Ibn al-Faqîh wrote that 'all the Khazars are Jews, but they have been Judaized recently'. Ibn Fadlân, based on his Caliphal mission (921-922) to the Volga Bulğars, also reported that 'the core element of the state, the Khazars, were Judaized',[120] something underwritten by the Qaraite scholar Ya'kub Qirqisânî around 937.[121] The conversion appears to have occurred against a background of frictions arising from both an intensification of Byzantine missionary activity in from the Crimea to the Caucasus, and Arab attempts to wrest control over the latter in the 8th century CE,[122] and a revolt, put down, by the Khavars around the mid-9th century is often invoked as in part influenced by their refusal to accept Judaism.[123] Modern scholars generally[124] see the conversion as a slow process through three stages, which accords with Richard Eaton's model of syncretic inclusion, gradual identification and, finally, displacement of the older tradition.[125][126]

Some time between 954 and 961, Ḥasdai ibn Shaprūṭ wrote a letter of inquiry addressed to the ruler of Khazaria, and received a reply from Joseph of Khazaria. The exchanges of this Khazar Correspondence, together with the Schechter Letter discovered in the Cairo Geniza and the famous platonizing dialogue[127] by Judah Halevi, Sefer ha-Kuzari ('The Khazar'), which plausibly drew on such sources,[128][129] provide us with the only direct evidence of the indigenous traditions[130] concerning the conversion. King Bulan[131] is said to have driven out the sorcerers,[132] and to have received angelic visitations exhorting him to find the true religion, upon which, accompanied by his vizier, he travelled to desert mountains of Warsān on a seashore, where he came across a cave in which Jews used to celebrate the Sabbath. Here he was circumcised.[133] Bulan is then said to have convened a royal debate between exponents of the three Abrahamic religions. He decided to convert when he was convinced of Judaism's superiority. Many scholars situate this c. 740CE, a date supported by Halevi's own account.[134][135] The details are both Judaic [136] and Türkic: a Türkic ethnogonic myth speaks of an ancestral cave in which the Āshǐnà were conceived from the mating of their human ancestor and a wolf ancestress.[137][138][139] These accounts suggest that there was a rationalizing syncretism of native pagan traditions with Jewish law, by melding through the motif of the cave, a site of ancestral ritual and repository of forgotten sacred texts, Türkic myths of origin and Jewish notions of redemption of Israel's fallen people.[140] It is generally agreed they adopted Rabbinical rather than Qaraite Judaism.[141]

Ibn Fadlan reports that the settlement of disputes in Khazaria was adjudicated by judges hailing each from his community, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Pagan.[142] Some evidence suggests that the Khazar king saw himself as a defender of Jews even beyond the kingdom's frontiers, retaliating against Muslim or Christian interests in Khazaria in the wake of Islamic and Byzantine persecutions of Jews abroad.[143][144] Ibn Fadlan recounts specifically an incident in which the king of Khazaria destroyed the minaret of a mosque in Atil as revenge for the destruction of a synagogue in Dâr al-Bâbûnaj, and allegedly said he would have done worse were it not for a fear that the Muslims might retaliate in turn against Jews.[141][145] Ḥasdai ibn Shaprūṭ sought information on Khazaria in the hope he might discover 'a place on this earth where harassed Israel can rule itself' and wrote that, were it to prove true that Khazaria had such a king, he would not hesitate to forsake his high office and his family in order to emigrate there.[146]

Abraham Harkavy [147] noted in 1877 that an Arabic commentary on Isaiah 48:14, variously ascribed to Saadia Gaon or to the Karaite scholar Benjamin Nahâwandî, interpreted "The Lord hath loved him" as a reference "to the Khazars, who will go and destroy Babel" (i.e., Babylonia), a name used to designate the country of the Arabs. This has been taken as an indication of hopes by Persian Jews that the Khazars might overthrow the caliphate.[148][citation needed]

In 965, as the Qağanate was struggling against the victorious campaign of the Rus' prince Sviatislav, the Islamic historian Ibn al-Athîr mentions that Khazaria, attacked by the Oğuz, sought help from Khwarezm, but their appeal was rejected because they were regarded as 'infidels' (al-kuffâr:pagans). Save for the king, the Khazarians are said to have converted to Islam in order to secure an alliance, and the Turks were, with Khwarezm's military assistance repelled. It was this that, according to Ibn al-Athîr, led the Jewish king of Khazar to convert to Islam

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

now show me proof of your science.

a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali

So I post peer reviewed papers based on DNA and genetic testing by actual experts and you respond with ... wikipedia? Funny.

originally posted by: duesprimusvictorimmortali
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

now show me proof of your science.

Enjoy.

DNA testing proves there is no Khazar link to the Ashkenazi Jews. It also proves the men are all of Middle East descent, and about half the women.

digitalcommons.wayne.edu...

Here is proof Ashkenazi have a paternal lineage that is identical with other Jews.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

And proof that they have a partial Maternal Middle East lineage. 40% or more women were of Mid East descent.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Further testing shows the 40% of maternal lineage is probably high. The Paternal DNA evidence is irrefutable.

They are from the Levantine region.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Overall, we estimate that most (>80%) Ashkenazi mtDNAs were assimilated within Europe. Few derive from a Near Eastern source, and despite the recent revival of the ‘Khazar hypothesis’16, virtually none are likely to have ancestry in the North Caucasus. Therefore, whereas on the male side there may have been a significant Near Eastern (and possibly east European/Caucasian) component in Ashkenazi ancestry, the maternal lineages mainly trace back to prehistoric Western Europe. These results emphasize the importance of recruitment of local women and conversion in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and represent a significant step in the detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

It doesn't matter, 80% of the women were not from the Middle East and usually that is the lineage Jews go from. They were from Europe and some of the men are possibly from the Caucasus also...

Me, Hatred? To be honest with you, the Geneology means nothing.. Is there a Gene for Christians? Pagans? Buddhists? Communists? No, because these religions or ideologies allow anyone to convert, Even the wives of Abraham were from different tribes, it means squat.. This is just an arrogant attempt to justify land grabbing from the Zionist part. And with that, Jews are not a race to start with.

If they were true Israelites, Israel would have a King (Because Israel can only be ruled by an Israelite King, Not a secular Government), would be operated under Jewish religious law and not secular law, wouldn't open up Brothels and allow Homosexuality, The people in Israel are imposters and everything I just mentioned is the reason why they are not Israelites. They contradict the very covenant of the Israelites.

a reply to: DarknStormy

This is just an arrogant attempt to justify land grabbing from the Zionist part. And with that, Jews are not a race to start with.

wrong Occam is trying to do no such thing

The only thing hes doing is refuting the BS spewed on here with actual DNA evidence and proof.......

I guess if you like you can phone up those Scientist and tell them they are biggots.......


Other then that, lets leave the bigoted comments like you just made out of a scientific discussion on DNA

If you have a problem with anything hes said provide evidence to back it up

otherwise stop with the hateful bigotted rhetoric

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

Jews are not a race, you know the only people who have actually claimed that are Hitler and Zionists? Geneology means nothing and I admit that even though I have provided scientific research about the issue also (Yes, I have already provided a counter argument). I don't like Zionism, I admit that also... I couldn't give two hoots about them or their cronies who control most of US congress and Israel.

a reply to: DarknStormy
a reply to: TheTengriist

So because Israel is "legal" by Western standards it makes occupying that land OK? I see...

About time you realized this land has been occupied by wetern superpwers for 2000 years since they kick the Jews out, so why would it be different now? especially that the Jews are back in charge?

An Palestinian Arab state was declared in 1976. Though declared it was not - is not - currently sovereign.

You said it..... Well these palestinians (in essence the descendants of arab refugees form various countries including what we know as today's Jordan) only remembered in 1976 to create a palestinian state? how is it their 'homeland' since before 1976 then?

What you fail to see is the history of the palestinians!

This should put in onto perspective for you!

a reply to: adnanmuf

I truly believe that it is very difficult to fully identify people occupying a specific piece of real estate from 2-3000 years ago and then attempt to establish some divine right of ownership or occupation based on verses in a religious book that many question the true authorship.
The whole basis of the biblical rights have to do with purity of race and that is found in the Christian Bible and Talmud.
Ok fast forward to the human genome testing, it has confused many why the people that occupy and call themselves Israelis today have been finding out their genetics are not even semitic and some that do find out have actually mixed with Palestinian or others people occupying the region and just as has been mentioned the great majority finding out that they have a mixture of western and eastern European genetics or what would be considered gypsy, that even their own scientists are attempting to explain but cannot.
If that is the case they are not pure and are Jewish by conversion only how can they wipe out the Palestinians and deny them their basic human rights? but on the other hand neither are a great majority of Palestinians truly 100% Semitic, because over time they have been intermixed as well, but they have a greater amount and identity with what is thought to be the original Semitic occupants of the holy land along with other tribal peoples from surrounding areas, who might be considered Berbers and Bedouin and also darker skinned and African looking but yet are also Semitic as well as the Ethiopian Jews.
I think that fighting wars and slaughtering others over land and disputes based on religion and who is purer or has a birthright to some part of earth is very sad especially when it is being proven by genetics that basically there is no pure race per SE in that region and most troubling is that one majority side in this dispute has absolutely no linkage whatsoever to that geographic location but have committed genocide against the legacy occupants there under false pretense and historians and the educated know this but it is allowed to continue.

a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali
a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali
a reply to: duesprimusvictorimmortali

This suggests that, even though Jewish men may indeed have migrated into Europe from Palestine around 2000 years ago, they seem to have married European women," states Professor Richards. This seems to have happened first along the Mediterranean, especially in Italy, and later -- but probably to a lesser extent -- in western and central Europe. This suggests that, in the early years of the Diaspora, Judaism took in many converts from amongst the European population, but they were mainly recruited from amongst women. Thus, on the female line of descent, the Ashkenazim primarily trace their ancestry neither to Palestine nor to Khazaria in the North Caucasus -- as has also been suggested -- but to southern and western Europe.

www.sciencedaily.com...

Without getting into it too much.... it is pretty much scientifically validated that all world Jewry didnt originate from Khazaria! this is an immature claim.... especially when you use wikipedia to back it up!

a reply to: phinubian

In all honesty it can safely be said that both groups have been in that area for probably thousands of years.

It's my opinion that the DNA discussion is just a means to continue the fighting between the two. This is a religious war. Not a land war.

Yes both want to hold claim over the land but the issue is much more fundamental then that.

Neither will concede because if religious belief systems.

Again I think the whole DNA debate is just there to further facilitate this.

Everyone I think can agree that both groups Are no strangers to the land

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

No you are incorrect, the vast majority who came from Europe were never there in the first place and this can be proven that there is only very small minority of Israeli's that can even prove otherwise, no my friend, genetic testing is something that yielded a great surprise and you are also incorrect in stating that it is a religious war but in Judaism that is solely established by bloodline and lineage, if you can establish no bloodline and lineage properly you are a gentile, lets not get away from the beginnings of this entire dispute and what the holy books that are the cornerstone of this mess say, it is about who are Jews( really who is from the tribe of Judah more than likely Ethiopian Jews and their line of kings can still establish bloodline from historical record and unbroken kingship since the biblical days) and who are gentiles that is fact sir and yes it is all about the land and the temple mount, real estate and who has rights to it from God or whatever you would like to call the creator.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: DarknStormy
About time you realized this land has been occupied by wetern superpwers for 2000 years since they kick the Jews out, so why would it be different now? especially that the Jews are back in charge?

I think the Vatican is in charge.... Even they have fall guys. I'm just wondering when they are going to take a walk down memory lane.