Why do peole think that Jesus was god?

a reply to: Murgatroid


Do you think Jesus was a liar? See I don't believe He ever once lied, nor did He ever once contradict Himself. This leaves us in the position to learn in what manner did Jesus never contradict Himself, and in what manner were phrases used by others such as John and Paul being said, in light of Jesus' non-lying non-contradictory statements. (rather than seeing Jesus as a self contradictory liar in light of what I think people like John and Paul were trying to say)

You can believe what you want, but I will believe what I figure out from the above - and people like Nenothtu and jmdewey60 are explaining the text, according to the greek, and showing how Jesus was neither contradicting Himself, nor lying when He spoke of Himself.

I don't care what type of church either belong to, although both have different background, jmdewey60 has a 7th day adventist background, and Nenothtu doesn't (I will allow him to say what if he chooses, he doesn't follow it at any rate because he doesn't believe Jesus is God), yet both their believes nearly echo one another.... why? because they both can read the greek... makes it more interesting doesn't it?

I sure think so..

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
Do you think Jesus was a liar? See I don't believe He ever once lied, nor did He ever once contradict Himself.

Neither do I...

I have no idea what your getting at.

a reply to: Murgatroid

I edited.... see again above.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

Sometimes our actions can be more important than our words.

Damnable doctrines need to be exposed for the false teachings that they are.

You know, that much is true - which is exactly why I'm on here arguing against the trinitarian heresy (both a "damnable doctrine" and a "doctrine of men", they key word in both being "doctrine") instead of taking a nice cool walk in the woods.

Even so, I've not stooped to calling people "cultists" just because they believe that heresy. It's better to educate than alienate, and it just so happen that I realize that ALL religious divisions are "cults", including the subdivisions of the major divisions. If you feel a need to label your own religion to differentiate it from other, similar, religions, then you're a cultist.

"Methodist" differentiates from "Baptist", "Southern Baptist" differentiates from "Independent Baptist", "Catholic" differentiates from "Protestant", and ALL are cults, since NONE has the original truth - not even the "Catholics" who claim to, because if they had it, they wouldn't need to differentiate themselves from any other sort of Christian - their "truth" would speak for itself, directly from the Bible, without needing a label, nor would they have to include "traditions" alongside "scripture", nor would they worry so about "individual interpretation" - there would BE no "interpretation".

"Baptists", "Methodists", "Presbeyterians", and so on and so forth wouldn't need to cut each other's throats for converts to their OWN label if they weren't "cults".

You say "cult" like it's a bad thing, rather than just another kind of division, which does make me wonder about YOUR cult.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I do respect what you are saying and love your writings on ATS....

But I am STILL struggling with your meaning.

When the Lord Jesus walked this earth He offended the religious people.

He wasn't TRYING to offend them.

He wanted them to know and believe the truth.

My point is that religion is a massive lie and the agenda is to deceive.

People are gullible and they believe what religion says.

God's agenda and religion's agenda are diametrically opposed to one another.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Murgatroid

Sometimes our actions can be more important than our words.

Damnable doctrines need to be exposed for the false teachings that they are.

"Baptists", "Methodists", "Presbeyterians", and so on and so forth wouldn't need to cut each other's throats for converts to their OWN label if they weren't "cults".

Your post makes me think on that man who I used to take lunch at the same time as for those few months...

He used to work a normal job at a company in Human Resources. But every wednesday night and sunday morning he pastored a very small church. They didn't pay him, he did it for free. I asked him why one time... and he told me his story.

He told me that he felt he was called by God to preach about Jesus, which led him to attend seminary school. He told me at the end of his first year there he was talking with a group of other soon to be preachers and out of curiosity he asked the question... "Why are you here attending seminary, what led you to come?" he told me the answer was so shocking to him that he dropped out of seminary, and went to a normal college and got a normal degree. He said every single one of them joined seminary for the money they would get pastoring churches.

Since he felt called by God, he quit and told God that if God wanted him preaching about religion then He would have to put him where God wanted him... so he ended up in time, pastoring a small church, for not one dime.

I think most of these Christian preachers do it for the money, and parrot what their prospective church goers want to hear, rather than anything resembling the truth. I think they mainly care about the money more than anything, although I am sure there are exceptions to that rule.

He did believe in the trinitarian doctrine, a doctrine I cannot understand nor abide, which is honestly why I never took him up on the offer to visit his church... but he didn't know greek either.

a reply to: Murgatroid

I believe what she's saying is that Jesus will not have lied about himself, his mission, or any other thing, and so anything anyone else had to say about him cannot be deciphered in a way that contradicts or invalidates what HE said himself.

That DOES seem, to me, to be the very origin of the various Christian divisions we have today - people interpreting the words of other folks in such a way as to invalidate Jesus' OWN words, to create their own comfort zone.

originally posted by: nenothtu
You say "cult" like it's a bad thing, rather than just another kind of division, which does make me wonder about YOUR cult.

Ok nenothtu, yeah I starred that, your posts are some of my favorites as well and I respect you as well...

A bit short on time so I will have to catch up with you both later as I enjoy the dialog.

I will say that I see nothing concerning good fruit when it comes to cults.

I am sure you remember what scripture says about that.

My 'cult' has for years has typically been non-denominational charismatic churches.

The first church I set foot in as an adult was the original Vineyard and then went to Setfree in Anaheim, CA.

Yeah, I think I see where you are going with this, many call these places cults.

a reply to: nenothtu

yes, this is exactly what I am saying!

Thank you!

originally posted by: OpinionatedB

Since he felt called by God, he quit and told God that if God wanted him preaching about religion then He would have to put him where God wanted him... so he ended up in time, pastoring a small church, for not one dime.

I think most of these Christian preachers do it for the money, and parrot what their prospective church goers want to hear, rather than anything resembling the truth. I think they mainly care about the money more than anything, although I am sure there are exceptions to that rule.

Back before I got baptized, MANY years ago, I had stumbled across this tiny church in Hampton, Va. Their pastor retired not long after I started attending there, and they wound up getting a new pastor, a really young guy with a really young family.

He lasted about 3 weeks total, as I recall, and the last Sunday evening sermon he preached was about how he wasn't being paid enough. That's committee business, not pulpit business, and he was shown the door that very evening.

The next Sunday, there was an old guy filling in. The church was in turmoil, in limbo, and he filled in for free since he was already retired from a larger church. That evening, after services, I caught him to the side and asked about a baptism, and was baptized the very next Sunday morning. Something nagged at me that "there's no time like NOW", turmoil or not, and so it was. That seemed to be the glue required to keep that church from self destructing, gave them just enough hope to keep slogging along and not throwing in the towel.

Jack continued "filling in" for free for the rest of the time I attended that church, until I moved away, and that little church grew by leaps and bounds during that time. They never even took up a collection, as most churches do. NEVER, in the entire time I was there, "passed the plate".

There are a LOT of churches around here where the preacher either gets paid nothing, or very very little, and most have "day jobs" to support themselves, with preaching being more a love or a hobby than an avocation. My mom's church is one of those - no preacher anywhere in that denomination gets paid that I know of, but they still preach, every Sunday.

Not everyone is in it for the money, and as you pointed out, one should be suspicious of those who are. While it's true that "the workman is worthy of his hire", and some things do require a little money, it's also true that if he shears the flock himself, he's stealing from the shepherd.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

I will say that I see nothing concerning good fruit when it comes to cults.

I am sure you remember what scripture says about that.

I do, and perhaps it's a difference in how we individually interpret "cult" in our own heads, AFTER the word is stated.

My 'cult' has for years has typically been non-denominational charismatic churches.

The first church I set foot in as an adult was the original Vineyard and then went to Setfree in Anaheim, CA.

Yeah, I think I see where you are going with this, many call these places cults.

Don't let this disturb you, but during the period I referred to above, the time around my baptism, I went to one of those "charismatic" churches - AHEM! - "religiously". You may now groan at the bad pun.

I went to one church in the mornings, a very placid, staid, and CALM church (which is the one I was baptized in), and then on Sunday evenings went and hung out with those scary "Holy Rollers" in the charismatic church. My, those folks were lively! That was something I needed at the time, and neither of those churches provided ALL of what was necessary on it's own, so I went to both.

I can't say that I have anything against either, but at the same time I don't believe "the whole truth" is going to be found housed in any ONE church nowadays, or even any ONE denomination. They all have their good points, and their points of divergence.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Facts Adventists Won’t Tell

Because they don't think that.

Nobody believes that they are "exclusively correct because they recognize and follow Ellen G. White."

History has shown that cults will ALWAYS lie to you and the SDA is no exception.

From my experience, people who put up anti-cult web sites are happy to lie to their readers.
I think this is seriously messed up, you posting all this propaganda.
The SDA church is not even considered a cult anymore, and hasn't been, by any reputable organization, for 50 years.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Because of the blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross He made available to us a new covenant between God and man, a new relationship. Everything about the new covenant has to do with the Spirit, not the law.

The "new covenant" is not any more literal than Jesus being of the order of Melchizedek.
There was an idea of covenants in the Old Testament which ended up being a source of so many curses, where in the reign of Jesus as Lord, those are removed, being made old by the new, but there isn't a literal new covenant that is put in place to replace the old one.

Too many people are teaching the written word without teaching the Spirit, which is how to hear God’s voice in you, the Holy Spirit.

"Spiritual" in regards to the new covenant is that it is not physical like the old one where it starts out with instructions on how to make a building and to perform ceremonies.
The new one is about a law of how to behave towards other people, out of love and kindness.
It isn't about God literally talking to us like He is reading the Law to us.

jmdewey60,

 ..but Melchazidek is the everlasting priesthood. The Priesthood of Christ.

The point the writer was making is of a priest class of one.
It was one with Melchizedek, and it is one with Jesus.

The point is that the priesthood was never intended to be of Levi...but of Melchizadek...and eventually the everlasting priesthood of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins. That the Olde Testament was not always to be and is of Bondage with her children. We are to know the OLde Testament..but our Priesthood is not of the Olde Testament per se..but of the New.

One in certain religions...is a word describing another god..not the God of the Bible.

the Believer knows Peace is the name of an individual.

I don't know where you get that from.

Yes...I know..no problem. It is through out the Word...from the Olde Testament..into the New Testament.

Peace...Rest...Sabbath.. In the New Testament ...we do not Rest and Peace in a day ...day keeping ..observing days times months and years. This is Olde Testament...Bondage with her children.

We rest in Him...Peace and Rest are names for Him. The Olde Testament was always looking foreword to Him...That a significant change would be coming with Him. For He is the fulfillment of all this daykeeping in the Olde Testament. It is now done away with the advent of the Cross and His Blood...to usher in the New Testament. This is 24/7. Not in a day or time per se...but Him. Not in ordinances...washings...et al..but in Him. He is Peace and Rest. 24/7.

Many Churches do not make this point because they like to have daykeeping..and such practices which are of bondage.
I believe this is one of the points many of the posters are making about many Churches today. That they are more in line with bondage than Liberty intended in the Word. And they are correct.

This seems to be a philosophy rather than a Bible teaching.
Hebrews 4:11
Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
(2011 NIV)
Making effort, or "to act fervently" in the figurative sense of the Greek, is the opposite of resting.
The "rest" is the goal of our activity.
None of what is being said in Hebrews has anything to do with the literal weekly Sabbath from the Ten Commandments.
The writer is just using it to make an analogy.

When you see passages like this of which you are quoting above....watch what happens when you put the word Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins or just Jesus in place of Rest. It fits..and fits well..just as in other places.

Yes..Jesus is the goal of our activity. I am not talking about a weekly Sabbath from the Ten Commandments..but a 24/7 Sabbath in Him. For we are to live our lives after the pattern learned from Him...not just on a particular day..but 24/7.
This was always the pattern in the Olde Testament as well...looking foreword to HIm..and the New Testament. To show that these people were not of this world and the patterns of this world..but a peculiar people...and the same today...after Him...24/7.


So many cannot see past these traditions..whether Hebrew or Gentile...for with the Sabbath ..none of this mattered.
This is another reason for the demise of the temple by 70 ad.

I hope that you are not saying that the Sabbath was the cause.

Gooddness no...the traditions of men was the cause along with the Fulfillment which took place at the Cross...the Sacrifice made only once. By 70 ad...God had finished with these people as to what He had called them to do.

To preserve His Word..and out of a certain line was to come the Messiah...Peace...Rest...Sabbath..

Almost everything else God told these people He had Chosen.. to do ...they messed up on an perverted after the traditions of men. Exactly how many Believers are doing today after the traditions of men. And In like manner ..they know it not.

...by covering us with His redeeming Blood.

This comes from your reading the King James.
King James gave orders to make the translation to support already existing church doctrine.
I was just looking at Revelation 1:5, where it says, "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood," where in the King James, it says, "Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,".
There isn't anything in the Greek to justify that translation, unless it is just tradition.
You claim to not follow traditions of men, but you use the most loaded with tradition translation there is.

Wow!! It also states that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
It also states that this is beyond the blood of goats and bullocks etc..after the Olde Testament and that priesthood.

You are quoting from Septuagint Greek. The KJV is using Koine Greek...not Classical. It is going to read differently.

His Blood is indeed what redeems us from our sins. As I stated ..in a previous post. When we come before God...God wants to see His Blood covering us..not the blood of goats and bullocks..or washings of men. Hence the other of His names..Redeemer.

Thanks,
Orangetom

nenothtu,

I do, and perhaps it's a difference in how we individually interpret "cult" in our own heads, AFTER the word is stated.

I know nenothtu. I often observe two legged wildlife in the body politic between the two phony political parties in this country. When I bother to so do..I think of the world "Cult."

I also think of the words ...devout, religious, and zealous. but of the other religion and the other god. Not God but the other god...the counterfeiter.


Now in place of Gods Word...you can substitute for the body politic...Talmud.

A system of rules which allow you to get around the rules. For those who know ..Talmud is a practice, going way back, which allows one to change the rules by using rules which most have never heard and do not know exist.

Rules for breaking the rules.

That is what the devout and zealous religion of politics is today.

Which is why they are working so zealously to prevent much of the Bible from entering the minds and souls of our children and people. For some of them might figure this out..from the Bible alone..and God forbid that they who know should teach others to spot this pattern...or this "Other " religion taking place right in front of us...by "Tradition." .



I am not into that Charismatic stuff. The Word I know tells me to reason together..not to emote together.

This is to me an important flag..a warning flag...for the method of this world is to get so many on the bandwagon...by their emotions...by default....not by clear reasoned thinking. Whenever I detect someone trying to grab me by my emotions..a warning flag goes up and the mental radar peaks out...Warning...Warning!! And I begin scanning using Biblical principles.

I detect this technique very often in todays traditions...by way of the Zealous and devout religion of politics..that they are using emotions to grab peoples souls without them knowing this is taking place. To get people to unthinkingly cede their souls and vote to certain political parties by default...without them knowing this has taken place...just as is been done to the Olde Hebrews and many Christians today.

This is not reasoning together.

Perhaps now you can see why I tend often towards lumping politics in as a devout and zealous religion...without many being able to so detect it as such.

Orangetom

OpinionatedB,

I have a question for you , not knowing much about the different groups or divisions in Islam. I hope you know sufficient to help me out here.



My question is ...do different groups in Islam ...believe the Olde Testament ..or The New Testament ..or both...in addition to the Koran.



I heard someone mention something to this effect...many years ago in a lecture but have never quiet expanded on this knowledge.

I have just reasoned to myself that this may be different for different groups of those under Islam.

I do not know how this works out by different sects or groups..divisions in Islam and am hoping you can clarify this for my learning.

I thank you in advance for any information's you can provide me here for my continued education.

Thanks,
Orangetom

This threads subject is "why do people "think"Jesus is "God".Unfortunately that is a loaded question and the answer is a bomb.By consensus most people that "think"(believe would be more accurate) because that is a"belief" they have in faith of "their Belief System" religion.In others words it is an amalgamation of "all of their " experiences that formed their "faith".Belief in Jesus is just one of them and to some the central "belief" of their "Religions"-religion.

The source is "almost" uncategorically, from teaching of the "bible" either self studied or most times taught to them…and that is the dilemma. To people that "believe" in Jesus it can be the central belief of their Belief System.Usually when confronted that will be their confession.I "believe" in Jesus.The crux becomes "what does that mean in practical terms…..

The majority who say they believe in Jesus will eventually categorize their belief as a "spiritual" experience that can't be explained.They just "believe" and can usually not express it adequately and some can't at all until it is a mish mash of religious rhetoric.Some others believe because they have "studied" a method their way to belief.

The common denominator is the book called the bible.It is the most revered and maligned book ever.It is at the center of more controversy than any other book in existence on earth.Many "believe" the bible IS the word of God.Which usually means it is inspired by God and is infallible and all the words written in it are truth.Many that believe in the bibles authority believe it derives that authority from the bible itself.That is the core foundation of why many believe in Jesus…for the bible tells them so.(or their parents,church, priest,pastor,bible study teacher etc etc)

Because of the abundance of "subjective opinion from these sources it begs the question who is Jesus…and it just so happens Yahoshua himself asked the very same question to his disciples in almost the same title of this thread..
"who do the "people" say I am".Their answer was essentially from the same "basic"source as what most people that believe in Jesus today…from books or from teachers that taught doctrines from the books.
Then he posed the real question..who do YOU say I am.In the scriptures it is recorded that only Simon-Peter answered him.

"You are the Son of God the christ".

Yahoshua did not say "the scriptures or the teachings of the Pharisees or scribes or Judaism or nature or transcendence etc etc have revealed this to you" he said MY Father has revealed this to you.If these words that were recorded are true and people that say they believe Jesus is God for "so and so reason" if it isn't by revelation from the Father it is only a belief.

Simon Peter DID NOT say"I BELIEVE" you are the Son of God the christ". In the recordings of the scripture of this interaction there is no mention of "believing" in Jesus on Simons part.He stated it as truthful fact not a subjective opinion of belief…and Yahoshua affirmed that is what it was.The FATHER revealed to Simon not flesh and blood nor "books" written by men nor things "learned" from men nor anything else but... revelation from the Father the creator God.

The fact is there is no other source.The religious teachings of the Jews was not….nor was their source the Talmud or the Tanakh. That is just as true today as it was then.The scriptures purpose is NOT to "reveal" the Truth….only the creator God the Father can and will do that.The scriptures are a testimony (witness) that testifies OF the truth…..Yahoshua…which means…Yahweh(the creator God) IS salvation/deliverance.The scriptures themselves are NOT the truth nor the "source" of the truth…the creator God is.

This truth has been obscured and perverted by the doctrines of men by using circular logic that is anything but logical or reasonable.Just as the Jews had their traditions of men (The Talmud) Christianity and Christians do also.The difference is ….it is more perverse.The division of it is so great they can never come to agreement simply because they are wrong.The apostles dealt with this in their time with Paul and John writing about it as a witness(testimony).

It is the nature of man to believe in their Belief System(B.S.) religion and everyones B.S. religion is different and ….wrong.It doesn't matter how much "right" is in it, a little leaven corrupts the whole lump of dough.That is the dilemma of mankind.Their nature is to believe in a Belief System formed by their "subjective" experiences which are perceived incorrectly.The conclusion is NONE can "know" the creator God "by" their false Belief System.All the good intention belief in the universe will just lead to more "unknowing"It is the most futile endeavor ever done by man.King Solomon summarized it as vanity of vanities.

The fact is believing in Jesus is just that..believing in "Jesus".It has no true meaning because it is meaningless because it isn't true.It is the conundrums of conundrums for those that "believe" in Jesus…however NONE that believe in Jesus can believe and more importantly "know" this fact.Their very belief IN Jesus blinds them to the truth.The Jesus they believe in isn't true at all.Neither is the God they "believe in.It is ALL in their "mind" through belief perverted by the traditions of men ..their Belief System religion..

The abundance of evidence is they will attempt to "prove" their belief(which is impossible") BY the main culprit…more belief(I just believe because I have faith) "books"…or teachers who teach from books.etc etc..These are all "methods" that have deviated(perverted) from what Yahoshua the apostles said and did.Within a few short years there begin to form a new religion of "Christianity"(even though the 1st "believers" did not know it.

John wrote of it in 3 of his letters.He called it the spirit of "antichrist" which means in place of the anointing(christ).He knew this as fact since HE WAS anointed.He KNEW those that were "believers" of "religion" because... he experienced that also!He saw the runaway tide of a new religion perverting the truth.It was only leaven then.It made the bread rise but Yahoshua told the disciples this very thing would happen when he said

In that day[age] MANY will come in "my name" and say "I am christ"[Christian] and deceive MANY.

That is a very succinct description of Christianity not some crazy nutcases proclaiming they are the 2nd coming of Jesus.Yahoshua and John stated this very clearly to testify in the testimony YET the very people that say they "believe" in Jesus can NOT hear what Yahoshua said so plainly.

That is the condition of those that believe Jesus is God…they believe a lie.Yahoshua is the SON of God.The Son of Man(The Son of Adam…humanity) Yahoshua WAS the seed of the Father.He proceed "forth" from the Father.His SOLE purpose was to be sown into the physical realm as THE seed of the Father.To do this he "lived" in the physical realm and he"died" in the physical realm.

contd'

What the real details of this process that is downward causation effected can not be known(unless revealed by the Father).The apostles and Paul wrote many allegories and metaphors that were twisted by the religious carnal mind into the doctrines of men.The fact is the Creator God "did" do something.Yahoshua's ancillary purpose was to proclaim(state the Truth NOT teach morals and ethics) the eventual "results" of his purpose…salvation/deliverance from Hades…the realm of death and imperception.That is what the apostles did also and religious man twisted into the doctrines of mans religion..

When Yahoshua and the disciples proclaimed "you must believe" it was a statement of truth of what EVERYONE will do….not a conditional cause of effect(being delivered from hades).ALL of mankind WILL be delivered …bar NONE(contrary what many believe)….. because deliverance IS the creator Gods nature and character (name…Yahoshua).
Mans nature is their Belief System religion.It is "their path" on the wide road that leads to the wide gate of destruction of "their" religion(their imperception of truth).In effect the creator God is using the disease as a stage of the cure.ALL of mankind BELIEVE in THEIR Belief System religion….ALL….Mankind has to "ride" out the "delusional"high fever of their religion to be delivered. This is true of EVERYONE…..even those that "don't " believe they are "religious.

The bottom line "believing in Jesus" is just the delusion of some peoples "religion" through imperception(faith).It is neither "good nor bad" in and of itself… it is just fact.Everyone has their own "cross" to bear because their "religion" will most assuredly be destroyed.Yahoshua said "many are called"(all of mankind) yet "few" are chosen.He said this "directly" to his disciples ONLY because the "few" were them….and ONLY them.It wasn't because they were "super spiritual"(whateverthehell that means) it was because they were the least.They DID not chose Yahoshua at all.He specifically "chose" them because the Father did.It wasn't because they were "qualified" Simon was a coward and a dullard of the highest degree.John and James were egomaniacs!!(they felt they deserved to sit at Yahoshua right hand) YET they changed(repented) not by Their hand but by the hand of the creator God.They are the 'firstfruitS" of the first FRUIT seed..Yahoshua.The last will be first and the first will be last.

Do Not envy them.They were chose.Their purpose is "beyond" mans vain imagination.The cup they drink of is the same Yahoshua drank from(not the holy grail BS).The fact is mankind is not "ALIVE" yet because they have not been born.They are in the womb of the physical realm being conceived.The only one "born" and begotten was the Son of the creator God..Yahoshua…He is the only man to enter into the Kingdom Of the creator God THROUGH humanity.The apostles path led them to the wide gate and their "religion" was destroyed then they entered the narrow path leading to the straight gate.

None can have any trace of religion and be on the narrow path(which is still In the physical realm and in the kingdom of God realm simultaneously).Just as Yahoshua did the apostles had a foot in the physical realm while on the narrow path and the Kingdom of God realm that is why they could "do" what they did.It was not "magic" or even in one effect "breaking " the laws of physics.Quantum physics is beginning to understand this principle (which is a very long difficult explanation).the crux of it being two "particles" can be entangled(interactive) at great distances (the span of the universe or beyond) without any "local" connector."In effect it seems to go against the most basic laws of physics…cause and effect... because the effect is perceived as miraculous.

Yahoshua entered the narrow gate.He is NOT in a "place" many call heaven.He is where he originated from…the creator God the Father realm..LIFE…The Kingdom of the creator God which is where all of mankind(and creation) will eventually be and they will"know" the creator God and NOT believe.…ALL caused from the ground up BY the creator God….

Who is "son of man" in gospels !?

a reply to: orangetom1999
It states right in the quran, that allah is the same god as that of moses, and that his covenants with them still stand, for them. Paraphrasing.

It also denounces the trinity.