Germany Demands U.S. Honesty on Spying After Expulsion of CIA Chief of Station

Mods, please move as you see fit, as this has potentially worldwide ramifications.
Surprised to see nothing on here about any of this yet.

Germany Demands U.S. Honesty on Spying After Expulsion

U.S. Offered Berlin 'Five Eyes' Pact. Merkel Was Done With It

Snippets combined from both links, bold emphasis added is mine.

“The U.S. still hasn’t grasped what a burden this case is for the German-American relationship,” Wolfgang Bosbach, a senior lawmaker in Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union, said yesterday. “Germany cannot tolerate espionage activity on its soil.”

Germany offered a fresh start in ties with the U.S. after asking the top American intelligence officer in Berlin to leave in response to two spying cases.

The expulsion, described as “an extraordinary event” by a German Foreign Ministry spokesman, reflects Chancellor Angela Merkel’s frustration about U.S. spying on one of its most important allies and the political risk of growing mistrust of American intentions among the German public.

President Barack Obama’s administration signaled recognition of Germany’s value as a partner while sidestepping specifics of espionage allegations that led to the expulsion of the top American intelligence officer in Berlin yesterday.

“We need and expect a partnership based on trust,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters in Berlin today. “We would like to reinvigorate our partnership and friendship on the basis of honesty.”

U.S. Ambassador John Emerson made his way to the Foreign Ministry in Berlin armed with a plan to head off the worst diplomatic clash of Angela Merkel’s chancellorship.

Emerson came to the July 9 meeting with an offer authorized in Washington: provide Germany a U.S. intelligence-sharing agreement resembling one available only to four other nations. The goal was to assuage Merkel and prevent the expulsion of the Central Intelligence Agency’s chief of station in Berlin.

It wasn’t enough.

The same morning, across the boundary once marked by the Berlin Wall, Merkel convened her top ministers following the 9:30 a.m. Cabinet meeting on the sixth floor of the Chancellery and resolved to ask the U.S. intelligence chief to leave German soil.

“We don’t live in the Cold War anymore, where everybody probably mistrusted everybody else,” Merkel, who has previously reserved her Cold War-mentality accusations for Russian President Vladimir Putin, said in an interview with German broadcaster ZDF today.
[...]
“The notion that you always have to ask yourself in close cooperation whether the one sitting across from you could be working for the others -– that’s not a basis for trust,” Merkel told ZDF. “So we obviously have different perceptions and we have to discuss that intensively.”

At that point, the U.S. intelligence officer was invited to leave the country rather than suffer the diplomatic ignominy of being declared “persona non grata” and expelled under the Vienna Convention. Merkel’s spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said yesterday that the government expected the unidentified official to leave the country “soon.”

The eviction was “a necessary step and a measured response to the breach of trust that took place,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters yesterday. He’ll meet U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry in Vienna tomorrow to discuss the matter on the sidelines of talks on Iran’s nuclear program.

The allegations of snooping have particular resonance for Merkel, who lived for 35 years in communist East Germany and who, as the daughter of a Protestant pastor, endured special scrutiny from the state-security service, the Stasi.

I want to hear Merkel declare that Germany does not have an intelligence collection apparatus.

Is anyone here fooled by this woman?

a reply to: Snarl

Why would you want to hear a lie? Of course they have an intelligence agency. However, after the reign of the Stasi, I'm sure they have far different priorities in their intel ops.

Germany = Looking for actual needles in the hay.

Five Eyes = Throw every single terabyte of insignificant hay on the pile.

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

Espionage is often referred to as the second oldest profession. I think people are just upset that the US has had the ability to collect everything for some time now ... and they're developing the ability to store it as well. No other country can do this, and keeping up with the Jones' is gonna cost a pretty penny.

Attitudes change over time, and just because Merkel takes exception doesn't mean her successor will follow in her exact footsteps.

There are severe penalties for spying. Those penalties are recognized by the international community. If she has a problem, and she catches an American spy on her soil ... go ahead and let her do her damnedest. I'm quite certain America can play the tit-for-tat game just like we did during the Cold War.

I'm going to stop just shy of calling this woman out as a hypocrite, because she really may be unaware of what might be going on behind her back. What she's doing, however, doesn't fool me a bit.

a reply to: Snarl

You raise some interesting points. However, if this is all about mere jealousy over our alleged abilities, why turn down a direct offer, authorized by Washington, to have access to the entire Five Eyes network?

My main concern is the fallout. Who else will be emboldened to take a stand against our policies after this very firm message from such an influential and strong country? We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

I'd guess her intent doesn't have you fooled either.

I like to look at the game of international diplomacy as I would a chessboard. What we're seeing are the movement of major pieces as opposed to pawns. A strategic repositioning is occurring. The MSM can't even figure it out. I wonder if Merkel and her team are as concerned.

There are a couple of ATS members capable of shedding light. I'm not smart enough to see much of it at all, but I could tell you, if you're really interested in seeing what's going on behind Merkel's public appearances, you don't have to look much beyond Russia's recent strategic moves on Iran and the Crimea. How the heck Russia pulled that off will probably never be explained in public.

Just jumping in so I can save...stars for both..
Flagged to...

Please continue....

Being honest about spying kinda defeats the purpose of spying, eh? Everyone does it. No one talks about it. And sometimes someone gets caught. That's just how it works. Being honest about spying would be more akin to a therapy session. Maybe we all need a few of those. Weird world.

I am telling you, a lot of people are so pissed here.
USA is just laughin in our faces and Merkel is kissing Obamas backside....
Even though a lot of people are really angry, the majority here does not even care and the US knows that our government will not do anything.
It is really sad and makes me really upset.

Even though I am pretty sure the German BND has its own spies on US ground, I think if they would get caught pants down there, they would be in big trouble and USA would give Germany hell for it.

I just think how my government reacts is just too weak. I don't see the US suffering from the consequences of its actions.

originally posted by: Snarl
I'm going to stop just shy of calling this woman out as a hypocrite, because she really may be unaware of what might be going on behind her back. What she's doing, however, doesn't fool me a bit.

Because everyone should be happy to have the U.S. infiltrate their intelligence apparatus. Don't be naive.

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic
America leveled Germany and they complain about some spying. That is like telling a street gang that they are not allowed to smoke in public.

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

I like to look at the game of international diplomacy as I would a chessboard. What we're seeing are the movement of major pieces as opposed to pawns. A strategic repositioning is occurring.

Hmmm.... Great insight. Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, which pieces on the board have moved to where, in regards to this news?

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

US and Honesty?

How in the hell can those two words be in the same phrase together?

Damn, sad to say I am a US citizen!

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Snarl
I'm going to stop just shy of calling this woman out as a hypocrite, because she really may be unaware of what might be going on behind her back. What she's doing, however, doesn't fool me a bit.

Because everyone should be happy to have the U.S. infiltrate their intelligence apparatus. Don't be naive.

I'm not. If you know what people are 'really' planning you can be prepared or act preemptively if necessary. Secondly, you can throw anyone under the bus when you catch them lying.

All the complaints I see on this issue are people who are butt-hurt over their country being a distant second to America's capability, or folks clamoring about how the sky is falling.

It's the defined capability that twists people's panties into a wad. I'm glad everyone's level of awareness has been raised. It's not like what was and is going on has been 'kept away' from public awareness. The continuing public discussion may serve to refine the left and right limits of collection and retention, but it's rather doubtful any entity not favored by America is going to get a break. The toys have all been bought and paid for. People are going to play with them.

originally posted by: aLLeKs
I am telling you, a lot of people are so pissed here.
USA is just laughin in our faces and Merkel is kissing Obamas backside....
Even though a lot of people are really angry, the majority here does not even care and the US knows that our government will not do anything.
It is really sad and makes me really upset.

Even though I am pretty sure the German BND has its own spies on US ground, I think if they would get caught pants down there, they would be in big trouble and USA would give Germany hell for it.

I just think how my government reacts is just too weak. I don't see the US suffering from the consequences of its actions.

"Even though a lot of people are really angry, the majority here does not even care" applies to many of our US citizen's outrage as well, at nearly all of the actions, or inactions our government is taking. The arrogance currently shown by them is staggering.

I disagree that your government will not do anything, this is arguably the first real action taken against us. They were gracious enough to give our top ranking intel officer the choice to leave, but made it very clear that if he declined that choice, things would get real ugly, real quick.

US Gov tried to go in and swoon them with offers, to keep having their way, yet the German gov stood firm and refused. That's gotta sting for us.

I see this as the first, possibly second, domino amongst many starting to tumble. One could argue that Putin's decision to harbor Snowden was the first.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Snarl
I'm going to stop just shy of calling this woman out as a hypocrite, because she really may be unaware of what might be going on behind her back. What she's doing, however, doesn't fool me a bit.

Because everyone should be happy to have the U.S. infiltrate their intelligence apparatus. Don't be naive.

Odd that you are a Canadian and you always seem to support our current POTUS, but YET, you sure as hell love bashing the country in which I live in and am a citizen of!

What's your game? And are you even a Canadian citizen?

EDIT: I don't care if you aren't an American citizen and criticize my government for it's actions, I am just calling you out for supporting a certain administration, and having the balls to STILL criticize my countries actions!

Explain!

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

I like to look at the game of international diplomacy as I would a chessboard. What we're seeing are the movement of major pieces as opposed to pawns. A strategic repositioning is occurring.

Hmmm.... Great insight. Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, which pieces on the board have moved to where, in regards to this news?

Energy is one, without a doubt. I'd look for a near to midterm squeeze on the oil flow from the Middle East. Russian oil stands to become a major commodity in the EU. America can't meet their supply demands, but they can cripple the suppliers.

I wouldn't be looking at the threat of one piece being traded for another. There's pressure being applied on squares of the board that are empty at the moment.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

US and Honesty?

How in the hell can those two words be in the same phrase together?

Damn, sad to say I am a US citizen!

Right? This little gem of wisdom helps me maintain perspective through times like these.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

I like to look at the game of international diplomacy as I would a chessboard. What we're seeing are the movement of major pieces as opposed to pawns. A strategic repositioning is occurring.

Hmmm.... Great insight. Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, which pieces on the board have moved to where, in regards to this news?

I wouldn't be looking at the threat of one piece being traded for another. There's pressure being applied on squares of the board that are empty at the moment.

Gotcha. Much like using bishops and/or knights to keep certain squares under threat, and unavailable to move to, yes?

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

We seem to be losing friends at a rapid pace.

I like to look at the game of international diplomacy as I would a chessboard. What we're seeing are the movement of major pieces as opposed to pawns. A strategic repositioning is occurring.

Hmmm.... Great insight. Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, which pieces on the board have moved to where, in regards to this news?

I wouldn't be looking at the threat of one piece being traded for another. There's pressure being applied on squares of the board that are empty at the moment.

Gotcha. Much like using bishops and/or knights to keep certain squares under threat, and unavailable to move to, yes?

Exactly.

You ought to consider sending a link to this thread to ColCurious and MrSpad. Those guys are damn near SMEs on geopolitics. Way more insightful than I will ever be.