The Islamist Worldview

In the mind of the Islamist, you are just an object. A theoretically existing "illusion" put in the way of Allahs true warriors.

The philosophy of Islamism, which comes to use through the writings of Hassan Al Banna, Sayed Qutb and Mohommad Iqbal, is based upon the theological views of the 11th century Persian thinker Al Ghazali.

it's important to discuss this because we so much craziness coming from Hamas, ISIS, Iran, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, Al Qaida, etc.

Wouldn't it be nice to understand them? to understand WHY they do what they do? What precisely is compelling their actions? What sort of logic or primary way of viewing things?

We in the west take our philosophical forebears for granted. We should thank Aristotle for giving us the method of induction into our thinking. For getting us to explore the physical and find therein the cause for their behaviors.

For instance. Why does a cup fall when I drop it? A western trained mind would attribute the fall to the weight of the cup. The cups weight attracts it to the earth. The earth's gravity plus the cups weight causes the cup to fall. This whole dialect expresses something called an efficient cause. The weight of the cup contains a basic 'force' that results in it's collapse. For Christian and Jewish theologians - both of whom admit this logic - the cups weight is a secondary cause. Though essentially it is the cups properties in its interaction with the earth that causes its collapse.

Now lets explore the whacky and mystical world of Al Ghazali. For Al Ghazali, it was sacrilege to attribute force and reality to anything "outside" of the primary reality of God. God was the efficient cause and only God alone. Anything that could be known about God was not mediated by anything that existed "out there" in physical reality, but through the Quran, which acts as his his will projected into human reality in the form of the narratives held within.

Crazy nonsense eh? Yes. This means a by-the-book follower of Al Ghazalis views literally thinks that any 'cause' is only whimsically a cause. That a microorganism causes disease and is alone an efficient cause for disease might be respected by a Muslim biologist, but a theologian or a youth growing up in bedlam, it is far too subtle to be understood. For them, for those who study nothing but the Quran, Sura and views of ancient theologians, it is the views and perspective of Al Ghazali, and his understanding of how reality is nothing but the 'extension' of Allah into (seemingly) secondary things.

You, Me. We are just pieces in the way of the eschatological end game for Islamists. The Israelis being shot at by the crazy people in Gaza are being shot at for some righteous desperation. Righteous people wouldn't respond this way. They would actually seek to work things out like reasonable human beings. But reasonable human beings, those of us who've grown up in the west and have been fortunate enough to absorb it's psycho-social ingredients, use their reason - an efficient cause for living righteously - to guide their behavior. For Islamists, human beings, A PRIORI, are unable to think ethically or morally on their own. All ethical thought is derived from the Quran; and only a trained scholar possesses the wisdom to know what is right and what is wrong. The Muslim world is glut with tell-me-what-to-do hotlines for people in a moral quandary.

Talk about passivity! Eh?

Well, moderate Muslims, thank heavens, agree with Aristotle. Human beings possess the innate capacity to thinking rationally and reasonably and therefore to determine and know for themselves what is moral behavior. Ethics is a SHARED wisdom. We all essentially sense that 'do not do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself' expresses some fundamental social truth about human behavior. We need to cultivate this attitude if as a whole we are to flourish and live in peace and quiet with one another.

Think what you will about the Israelis. They are biting a bullet for the rest of us. They represent a more moral and forward society and they working under the volcano, so to speak, in having to deal with primitive minded Islamists who want nothing more than to eliminate non-Muslims who abide by a worldview anathema to their own.

ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Boko Haran in Nigeria. The lunacy of the Iranian regime. Fundamentalist Islam is still alive and well

Though I hope, and sense, that more and more young Muslims and citizens of Muslim predominate countries will come to adopt the worldview that has been hard-earned in the west. We had to pass through world wars to discover that fundamentalist conservative ideas about self and other lead inexorably to social chaos and self destruction. The Muslim world will catch up. I see how the internet is changing things. But the Islamists represent a deadly counterforce to the presence of mindful awareness that is growing in these countries.

Funny .. the u.s government views people the same way.

originally posted by: Expat888
Funny .. the u.s government views people the same way.

What does the thread had to do with the US government? Stay on topic please.

a reply to: Astrocyte

S&F for a great explanation into seeing how the Muslim mind thinks.

I have Iranian friends living and working here and their thinking is very Westernised and not anything like you describe.

The world view you paint is a very sterile and illogical; one that seems to have perverted itself away from a similar view held by many mystics in the West. They also see God in everything that exists - its all God, just different aspects of the same persona, energy and anything else that sums us what God is for some people. However there is a gaping chasm with God actually having intelligent design in the way he created the world and his being a 'third-party' whom the mystics want to reunite with.

Your thread has helped me to see a little more into the mentality of the fundamentalist and their gullible followers. For me its always been the religious men in frocks that need to be hung, and the idiots who listen to their poison, yet have not developed any discernment of their own in order to recognize how anti-humanity it is, need some form of therapy to remove this dire conditioning, these frock-wearing lizards have put into their heads since babyhood.

I have always worried about Israel as after over 60 years the government there has not managed to run that country on any line other than a pure dictatorship. However I do see the point you have made about the difference between Jew and Islamist - although both have their extremists and normal citizens. I do pick up the point you make about the mentality of who they are dealing with. It will help me understand on a deeper level what they are dealing with.

I am worried about how our Government which has allow mass immigration into the UK - and the same into the USA happen without looking at the real mentality of those coming to the West. Its whether they can mentally adjust to a Western way of life or whether they are simply going to disrupt life in the West trying to implant a Muslim ghetto into the areas they have settled that is the problem for me. A young woman who tried to make the Muslim point on a video here recently got more than she bargained for from another women from the Panel.(I can't remember but its only a few days old) this young Muslim gave us, IMHO a veiled threat by stating the sheer number of Muslims living in the USA which as a very large block of people - albeit spread out across the country and could pose a terrific risk to the non-muslim -population. I do think that some form of Islamic country/caliphate or whatever would put extremists into a world they would like to live in and leave us all alone and `way from trying to influence our change of mind regarding conversion to their religious principles.

I am beginning to think that there is no way we are in any way compatible with this kind of thinking and don't know, if I am ready to be dragged backwards whilst muslims over here learn how to reinvent the wheel of free thinking and discernment. I suspect we would be looking at civil war if the latter is the way the government want to play it.

Very informative thread though and thanks for the insight.

oh yes, the Israelis the saviours who are more cunning and manipulative than the devil himself, yes those Israelis whose country was formed by raping and pillaging people who have the bravery to continue to fight back, and you and people like you brainwashed by western propaganda(more Israeli/Zionist lies) have the audacity to call these people terrorists.

Oh how I can only wish that you befall the same fate as the Palestinians one day, and when you want to fight back you're labelled a terrorist not fit for society in general.

You can't fool the already fooled, the Zionists you support got to them long ago, is it that you fear the world is slowly(or quickly even) turning against the Zionist genocidal maniacs and as a last ditched effort you want to try to persuade those that are still on the fence and rather uneducated into believing that the Zionists are fighting a just fight? or is it that you are just totally hoodwinked by the propaganda that your Zionist media spews out on a daily basis?

Funny how you set out to show your inferiors your twisted viewpoint 'islamists' yet couldn't control showing your true agenda bringing up the Israeli's several times as the innocent party. Why don't you enlighten your audience as to the treachery of the Zionist jews that is well documented throughout the last century, and then tell your audience as to why their are many devout jews who sympathise with muslim's in regards to the fact that Israel should not exist today and why these many jews are dead against Zionism as a whole.

All in all, just another attempt to demonise muslims and place the zionist genocial jews on a pedestal, mind you a very lacklustre attempt to say the least.

Talking about the Islamist worldview I had to admit to what author has wrote about Ghazali , but not about the Quran . Quran itself says . 2: 01 (This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of God ) Quran is not for a person who is in doubt or who is not conscious of God .a person who is not aware about God ,can get nothing from Quran.
And secondly '' Islamist worldview'' I prefer to use customization of religions instead of Islamist worldview , because all the heavenly religions are customized by saints and scholars. they were not born that way , worldview of saints and scholars are not the view of the religions , Christians also has Saint Paul . martin Luther , , there is nothing wrong in customizing the religion if that brings good . It's true Muslims scholars had customized Islam as a weapon , so it became very aggressive .

originally posted by: Astrocyte
Wouldn't it be nice to understand them? to understand WHY they do what they do? What precisely is compelling their actions? What sort of logic or primary way of viewing things?

To make disordered or bad things stop, it is best to understand it so you know best how to fight it. However, sometimes 'crazy' has no motive other than 'crazy'. And evil itself can't really be understood. IMHO.

a reply to: Haxsaw
Instead of the usual 'Zionists are evil' type post - Would you like to address the specifics in the opening post that you disagree with and post information showing why you think the author of this thread was wrong? That would go much further and be more productive for the discussion.

I'll start you off ... the topic was focused on the writings of Hassan Al Banna, Sayed Qutb and Mohommad Iqbal, and the theological views of the 11th century Persian thinker Al Ghazali. Would you care to explain why you think the author of this thread misunderstood those writings?

I look forward to your response.

None of us would have to think about this but for globalisation.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s - not a single second of mental energy was wasted on Islamism.

We should not have disturbed the sand people or immigrated them to our countries.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Think what you will about the Israelis. They are biting a bullet for the rest of us. They represent a more moral and forward society and they working under the volcano, so to speak, in having to deal with primitive minded Islamists who want nothing more than to eliminate non-Muslims who abide by a worldview anathema to their own.

Man talk about drinking the koolaid. You do know the ME was relatively peaceful until the Zionist invasion and their ethnic cleansing of the land don't you?

The lunacy of the Iranian regime.

Are you talking about the lunatic regime that hasn't started a war with anyone for hundreds of years? Too bad you can't say that about the lunatic regime of Israel that you praise so much.
You managed to combine Islamophobia with praising Israel good job.

a reply to: CJCrawley

I grew up in the 60s and 70s - not a single second of mental energy was wasted on Islamism.

That's because the puppet dictators of the west were still in charge back then. As soon as the people rose up and took control of their nations away from the west and cut off the oil did Islam become such a big threat.

a reply to: buster2010

And now mass immigration has put us all in mortal danger.

a reply to: Astrocyte

So we should displace them all and justifiably murder any that wont leave? If they are as crazy and unreasonable as you suggest then what do you suggest is done about it? Smaller camps? More checkpoints, limited resources, no UN representation, erase them?...

originally posted by: buster2010
You do know the ME was relatively peaceful until the Zionist invasion and their ethnic cleansing of the land don't you?

Yeah .. it was sooooo peaceful over there without those darn zionists.
(Just a small sample ... not all inclusive.)
en.wikipedia.org...

1.1 Muhammad's campaigns
1.2 Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750
1.2.1 Under the Rashidun
1.2.2 Under the Umayyads
1.2.3 Later conquests
1.3 Conquest of Persia and Mesopotamia: 633–651
1.4 Conquest of Transoxiana: 662–751
1.5 Conquest of Sindh: 664–712
1.6 Conquest of Hispania (711–718) and Septimania (719–720)
1.7 Attempts to Conquer the Caucasus: 711–750
1.8 End of the Umayyad conquests: 718–750
1.9 Conquest of Nubia: 700–1606
1.10 Incursions into southern Italy: 831–902
1.11 Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360
1.12 Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299–1453
1.13 Further conquests: 1200–1800
1.14 Decline and collapse: 1800–1924

TY, I would like to understand

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: buster2010
You do know the ME was relatively peaceful until the Zionist invasion and their ethnic cleansing of the land don't you?

Yeah .. it was sooooo peaceful over there without those darn zionists.
(Just a small sample ... not all inclusive.)
en.wikipedia.org...

1.1 Muhammad's campaigns
1.2 Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750
1.2.1 Under the Rashidun
1.2.2 Under the Umayyads
1.2.3 Later conquests
1.3 Conquest of Persia and Mesopotamia: 633–651
1.4 Conquest of Transoxiana: 662–751
1.5 Conquest of Sindh: 664–712
1.6 Conquest of Hispania (711–718) and Septimania (719–720)
1.7 Attempts to Conquer the Caucasus: 711–750
1.8 End of the Umayyad conquests: 718–750
1.9 Conquest of Nubia: 700–1606
1.10 Incursions into southern Italy: 831–902
1.11 Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360
1.12 Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299–1453
1.13 Further conquests: 1200–1800
1.14 Decline and collapse: 1800–1924

Ok. What about in MODERN times? You go that far back and suddenly the US and Canada have to explain what happened to the Natives.

a reply to: Astrocyte

originally posted by: Astrocyte
it's important to discuss this because we so much craziness coming from Hamas, ISIS, Iran, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, Al Qaida, etc.

Wouldnt it make just as much sense, if not more, to understand the worldview of the globalists or Western governments?

For example, Al-CIAeda was an invention of the US with support from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

ISIS is an off-shot of Al-CIAeda and is being openly visited by McCain and funded/armed/trained by Obama (ie the Obama administration, which now wants to give them another $500 million).

As a matter of fact, almost every Moslem strong man, dictator, terrorist leader etc., from Saddam to Osama to Mubarak to the Shaw etc., has been openly supported by, installed or armed by the West...

I sincerely believe that none of these groups/leaders would be able to accomplish a single thing without outside help.

Even when Saddam was at his "strongest" with his "1,000,000 Republican guards", it took the US all of 100 hours to topple the country.

The whole area is a big joke. The media amplifies their "threats" for the sake of propaganda and scare tactics used to corral the sheeple, take away our rights, and to keep the money flowing to the war-for-profit industry.

The US government needs a constant enemy. The "brown scare" has replaced the "red scare".

QUOTE Now lets explore the whacky and mystical world of Al Ghazali. For Al Ghazali, it was sacrilege to attribute force and reality to anything "outside" of the primary reality of God. God was the efficient cause and only God alone. Anything that could be known about God was not mediated by anything that existed "out there" in physical reality, but through the Quran, which acts as his his will projected into human reality in the form of the narratives held within. a reply to: Astrocyte

Actually this true except for the Quran statement.

If you are Christian you can refer to the statement by Jesus that you should not be of this world. Why? Because it is an illusion.

Buddhism has a bit to say about the illusion of the world.

From the Course in Miracles we get, " What is real cannot be harmed, what is unreal does not exist." So, God is Real, the physical world is not.

The Quarn was probably to be the equivalent of our Holy Spirit, Jesus Consciousness, Higher Consciousness.

Unfortunately it has been misinterpreted and corrupted just as Christianity has been and become a cult , predatory religion just like Christianity. and walla you get, the chaos of to days world. Only you can choose to wake up from the dream.

If you recall, the Bible says that man ( actually the Son of God, which we all are) fell into a deep sleep, from which he has not awaken. What you believe to be reality is just a terrible dream and what you might call the devil or satan is the projector of what you believe to be life experiences.

Until we all go thru a process of forgiveness this false world will continue to exist. As long as you chose to believe in it you relive it eternally.

So yes, God is the first and only cause.

You are worthy of God's Love and experiencing God's Real World. And so it is.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Two of the greatest insults to Islam are Shirk and Riba... You will find that every Western nation is engaged in both of those. The West has built a society which will never, I repeat never be accepted by Islam. That is the truth of the matter and nothing will ever change that.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

I don't know. But people who actually care about our world are justifiably consternated about Islamism. Nigerians are. Every freaking day something horrible happens there. Iraqis are suffering with the Sunni ISIS Islamists, wreaking terror throughout. And I could go on and on. Hamas for Israelis; Muslim Brotherhood for Egyptians. And the victims are consistently those of different religious faiths - Christians, Shia, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists. Damn well every religious war that exists in our world today is one where a fundamentalist Muslim is pitted against someone else. From Thailand to Afghanistan to Myanamar to India, to Israel to Egypt, Fundamentalist Muslims are fundamentally dangerous. And you would be an idiot to close your eyes to them and not pay attention at how dangerous they are.