update; deputy who shot 13 year with pellet rifle will not be charged.

deputy gelhaus who shot 13 year old andy lopez back in october here in my home town of santa rosa, ca. will not be chatged as per our district attorney.

as i said in october, i have no problem WHY the deputy shot. (he saw a kid with a pellet rifle that looked like an ak47). i have a problem with HOW he shot. there were 9 seconds from the order to drop to when he started to open fire. in my opinion, he did not give not enough time to asses the situation. keep in mind, he DID NOT identify himself as law enforcement as well. this was a tragedy that could have been easily avoided by BOTH parties.

pressdemocrat.com...

pressdemocrat.com...

originally posted by: blackthorne
deputy gelhaus who shot 13 year old andy lopez back in october here in my home town of santa rosa, ca. will not be chatged as per our district attorney.

as i said in october, i have no problem WHY the deputy shot. (he saw a kid with a pellet rifle that looked like an ak47). i have a problem with HOW he shot. there were 9 seconds from the order to drop to when he started to open fire. in my opinion, he did not give not enough time to asses the situation. keep in mind, he DID NOT identify himself as law enforcement as well. this was a tragedy that could have been easily avoided by BOTH parties.

pressdemocrat.com...

pressdemocrat.com...

In the picture, the rifle looks real enough and especially if your not up close.

Where are you getting the facts about the 9 seconds and the comment he didn't identify himself? I didn't see any of that in the 2 stories.

Even so, If you think the guy across from you is holding an AK-47 and your adrenaline is pumping....9 seconds is an long time.

I guess i get why he shot, but there still should be consequences for being wrong when you kill an unarmed person.
Regardless of what was thought the person had.
And i don't consider a pellet gun armed.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
I guess i get why he shot, but there still should be consequences for being wrong when you kill an unarmed person.
Regardless of what was thought the person had.
And i don't consider a pellet gun armed.

Consequences? That man will have to live the rest of his days knowing that he shot & killed an innocent 13 year old boy. Dehumanized as cops are on this site, he's still a human being anyway, & I'm sure he's now living every cop's nightmare.

a reply to: BuzzCory

I agree to a degree.
Just hard pressed to believe that if joe citizen did it that they wouldn't get some sort of criminal charge.

originally posted by: BuzzCory

originally posted by: Sremmos80
I guess i get why he shot, but there still should be consequences for being wrong when you kill an unarmed person.
Regardless of what was thought the person had.
And i don't consider a pellet gun armed.

Consequences? That man will have to live the rest of his days knowing that he shot & killed an innocent 13 year old boy. Dehumanized as cops are on this site, he's still a human being anyway, & I'm sure he's now living every cop's nightmare.

13 year olds usually play with toy guns. I had an air gun when I was 13. How many 13 year olds have real AK47's?

This cop was wrong. When you see a 13 year old with a plastic AK47 (the air gun replicas are plastic) you do not shoot. Surely most peoples first assumption is it is a toy.

This situation was not handled properly. Cops should be trained on how to determine if a gun is real or not especially if handled by a child before opening fire. Cops are too fearfull these days. They are terrified of the public for some reason. Why else would they be shooting us all and beating us up for no reason.

How are they being trained? Most are massivley overweight. Most cops in the US would NEVER get to work for the police in other countries due to their size alone. So, what the hell is happening with the police in the US?

They cant run after criminals....so they shoot.
They are not even responsible enough to look after themselves and eat properly.

originally posted by: pennydrops

This cop was wrong. When you see a 13 year old with a plastic AK47 (the air gun replicas are plastic)

Only the really cheap ones.

I've played airsoft for some time, the only plastic guns I have ran under $50 or are made of plastic/polymer in real life.

Police warn about dangers of realistic toy guns

July 8th 2014 West Virginia

Its not just a California issue.

Makers of toy guns are apparently not following established laws that require toy guns to have bright colors. in the case of California the "AK 47" did not have the bright colors as required by law.

By the same account Parents are not keeping tabs on their child's toy guns to make sure the color has not been removed.

While I understand some of the issues some have in this thread with the topic of use of deadly force one must look at the over all situation. By that I mean you must look at the possible threat and attempt to size it up, you must be aware of your surroundings, as innocent bystanders etc can be taken into account when using deadly force.

In order to understand how the PA / Courts deal with Law Enforcement use of force one must understand the criteria. Law Enforcement Officers, by the very nature of their job, are required to make snap decisions based on that exact moment in time. That decision by the officer takes into account more than just the person they are dealing with.

In the 1960s the US Supreme Court ruled Law Enforcement cannot shoot a fleeing felon in the back. They allowed an exemption, which most people don't know about or ignore.

If the suspect in question is fleeing and presents an imminent danger to the public at large deadly force can be used against a fleeing felon.

The reason for that is to remove a possible delay, "fleeing felon" running away from police while running towards a business / civilians, potentially creating a hostage situation or a situation where the felon decides he wants to kill as many people as he can before being shot and killed by police.

The criteria is what did the officer perceive at the moment the use of force occurred. That is the standard and requirement when reviewing an officers use of force.

As for civilians use of force, their ability to use force is a lot wider than law enforcement, and they actually have better protections than law enforcement by the very fact law enforcement is not their primary job. Hence the higher standard applied to law enforcement.

Its tragic that someone died and it will always be like that.

However, to place 100% of the blame on law enforcement is not correct. The Police were not the ones who told this kid to snag a toy gun that looked real and walk down a city street, and then begin to point it at the officer as he turned around.


As for the comments about toys and real guns -
In my state a "weapon" that is .177 caliber or larger is considered by law to be a firearm. (compressed air)
California laws are more strict in that area than my states laws are and for good reason.

Any time there is an encounter with law enforcement we look to see what is present that can harm us. Ask yourself this question -

If you are walking down the street and a person comes towards you with what appears to be a weapon, and you are armed, and that individual begins to raise the weapons in your direction, what are you going to do?

A - Pull your weapon and engage the threat?
B - Stand there and hope for the best?
C - Try to look and figure out if the item is real or a toy, all the while the person comes closer and closer to you.

Now, same scenario as above except in this case you have only 1-3 seconds to decide what to do.

Possible results -
* - You engage and stop the threat, only to find he had a toy gun.
* - You engage and stop the threat, only to find the weapon was in fact real.
* - You hope for the best, resulting in the death of you and your friends with out.
* - You hope for the best and the person keeps walking past you.
* - You eyeball the person trying to decide if the gun is real, resulting in a demonstration that the gun is, getting your answer before you hit the pavement.

Motives -
The person with the gun is on drugs / drunk / mentally impaired / just got done robbing a person / just got done killing a family / etc etc.

I bring the above up because use of deadly force is not as black and white as some of you wish it were.

Everything listed above, and a lot more I left out, is something that an officer must ask himself and resolve in 1-3 seconds.

With how realistic they make airguns look these days and that in some areas there are 13 year old or younger kids that carry/use real firearms the officer made a judgement call and will live with that haunting him ..

The courts made the right call ..

Guess those who hate the police here would have been happier if it was an ak47 and the kid had killed the officer ..

originally posted by: pennydrops

originally posted by: BuzzCory

originally posted by: Sremmos80
I guess i get why he shot, but there still should be consequences for being wrong when you kill an unarmed person.
Regardless of what was thought the person had.
And i don't consider a pellet gun armed.

Consequences? That man will have to live the rest of his days knowing that he shot & killed an innocent 13 year old boy. Dehumanized as cops are on this site, he's still a human being anyway, & I'm sure he's now living every cop's nightmare.

13 year olds usually play with toy guns. I had an air gun when I was 13. How many 13 year olds have real AK47's?

This cop was wrong. When you see a 13 year old with a plastic AK47 (the air gun replicas are plastic) you do not shoot. Surely most peoples first assumption is it is a toy.

This situation was not handled properly. Cops should be trained on how to determine if a gun is real or not especially if handled by a child before opening fire. Cops are too fearfull these days. They are terrified of the public for some reason. Why else would they be shooting us all and beating us up for no reason.

How are they being trained? Most are massivley overweight. Most cops in the US would NEVER get to work for the police in other countries due to their size alone. So, what the hell is happening with the police in the US?

They cant run after criminals....so they shoot.
They are not even responsible enough to look after themselves and eat properly.

In your quest to make this incident all the cop's fault, & to describe how wrong everything he did was, you seem to have overlooked the fact that your reply actually has nothing to do with what I posted.

a reply to: blackthorne

I agree with you that both parties share fault in this case, and not identifying yourself as a cop when shouting "freeze" or "drop the gun" etc removes all authority from your order. I can only assume that the ID is a required procedural part of the order - is a member here able to confirm that?
If such ID is required then the cop certainly needs to face at least some charges/disciplinary procedures - but this is of course dependant on their own policies and procedures.

On a related note, perhaps gun owners can help kids enjoy harmless play with colourful toy guns without being shot by police officers by encouraging fellow gun owners to not own technicolour weapons, pink "hello kitty" designs and so forth. It seems a small price to pay to allow kids to enjoy their toys.

You think someone has an AK-47.

Do you walk out in the open and yell drop it

or

Put something solid between you and the other person and issue that command

I suppose being in the open is a makes it easier to justify using deadly force if any movement occurs.

a reply to: Sremmos80

when this occurred back in october, it was reported by our local press, and the officers and witnesses all agreed that 9 seconds elapsed between the order to drop the weapon and when the shots were fired. and also, once again, deputy gelhaus did NOT identify himself as police.

a reply to: skalla

Law Enforcement identification is not based solely on verbal communication, and that is reflected in almost all agencies use of force / subject resistance control policies.

Officer Presence -
* - In uniform
* - marked patrol vehicle
* - verbal communications
etc etc

Their authority was established by being in uniform, a marked patrol vehicle and their communication with the individual.

Officers not in uniform engaged in official duties are generally the ones where identification is more difficult (detectives / special investigations / etc). There are documented court rulings where civilians who have been involved in a fight with an officer who is not in uniform have had their charges dropped / dismissed based on the failure to completely establish police authority - IE basic assault charges might apply where as assault on law enforcement is dropped.

There are examples going in both directions. Rule of thumb is to identify however in some circumstances its not possible. The requirement differs from agency to agency / state to state based on their court rulings / laws / policies.

In my state we are required to carry our commission card as our "official" proof that we are who we say we are. My agency had a departmental policy requiring us to produce it should a citizen we have contact with asks and if the situation permits it.

I have yet to have anyone ask me for mine with the exception of court security when im not in uniform.

Anyone else have any other information on this question?

So let me get this right...

The kid did not raise the rifle and he was just 13 years of age? Does a cop really expect a 13 year old kid to be running around with a real AK-47 and then tempt cops?

Doesnt add up.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the reply and the info, i must admit that i'm relying on (likely sketchy) info on this case when it was first posted here some months ago and perhaps incorrectly recalled it as taking place at night time.

Of course, if the youngster in question could see a uniformed cop, then he should follow common sense at the very least and obey the order to freeze/drop the weapon.

However, i also think that the cop should (despite the risk) exercise restraint due to the presumed visible age of the potential target.

I really think that while there are great cultural differences, US cops could learn a heck of a lot from the de-escalation approach of cops in the UK.

ETA: just fyi, by "ID" i meant stating "police officer" as part of the verbal order to drop the weapon etc

originally posted by: Expat888
With how realistic they make airguns look these days and that in some areas there are 13 year old or younger kids that carry/use real firearms the officer made a judgement call and will live with that haunting him ..

The courts made the right call ..

Guess those who hate the police here would have been happier if it was an ak47 and the kid had killed the officer ..

The USA is not a country with 13 year Olds running around with aks...
I will agree they look rather real but still at the end of the day it was not real so the officers were in no danger and a 13 year old is dead.
And if this guy keeps getting told he was in the right then are we really sure this is going to eat at him?
Imo he didn't show much compassion for th kid since he shot him in the first place, why is it going to haunt him after the fact?

a reply to: skalla

No problem... Just keep in mind the info varies from state to state.

As for age of an individual - Age is not a factor when a person is armed and performing an action that results in aggressive behavior.

a 6 year old or a 106 year old - so long as they know how to point a weapon and squeeze the trigger they are just as deadly as a 35 year old career convict.

Secondly, based on how kids dress these days it can be almost impossible to determine an age based on looks alone.

originally posted by: Sremmos80



I will agree they look rather real but still at the end of the day it was not real so the officers were in no danger and a 13 year old is dead.

The fact the item was a toy was not discovered until after the incident occurred. This goes back to what I was saying about totality of circumstances and use of force. Hindsight 20/20 cannot be used in these cases.

I will point out that until this incident made the news, no one knows what happened, including you and me. The officers also do not have the luxury of knowing what's going to happen and its outcome since its occurring to them in real time.

Had it not been for media reporting you would never have known the item in question was not real. The same applies to the officers in the sense they did not know if the gun was real.

When in doubt officer safety demands the item be taken as real until determined its not.

a reply to: skalla

andy lopez had his back to the deputies. they had driven up on him from behind. they got out, dep. gelhaus yelled drop your weapon twice with out identifying themselves as law enforcement and then fired his weapon 9 times, 7 hitting. one in the back and one was in his side as the boy was turning around to see who was yelling at him.