The Jewish Trinity(OT only)

Enjoyed the video a lot. Figured I'd post it with a Synopsis of about the first hour.

Synopsis:
The first thing one needs to understand before we start this is that Biblical theology did not start with any of the theologians to day or even with the past few hundred years. Some things in the Bible can only be understood if you look at it from the perspective of an ancient Israelite.

Jewish Monotheism

There are four common Hebrew terms for God, they are as follows:

Elohim(occurs around 2000 times)
El(occurs around 200 times)
YHWH(occurs around 6000 times)
eloah(67 times, mainly in the book of Job)

The term Elohim describes :
The God of Israel
the gods of nations(1 kg 11:33)
the gods of Yahweh's council(Psalm 82:1)
Demons(Deut 32:17)
Deceased human dead(1 Samuel 28:13)
Angels(Genesis 32:1-2 ; 36:7) He mentions that some of these depend on how you take a few passages.

Somewhere around 11 minutes he goes through the obscuring that is done in the English translations I would outline them but I cannot read them on the laptop screen. Elohim has a clear Hebrew translations, but we are accustom to assigning certain attributes to the word "G-O-D", something Biblical writers did not do with respect to the word elohim. The list above makes this obvious as they apply it to six different things. If they would use the word for a demon obviously it has another meaning as well. Elohim is not equal in attributes, that is to say YHWH=elohim, but no other elohim=YHWH.

Elohim=place of residence. Anything that is an elohim is something from the spiritual realm. If one calls something an elohim it only says means that it is from the spiritual realm. So Biblical use of the word, "elohim" is not tied to a specific set of attributes. Since the word is not about a specific set of attributes the biblical writers were not denying monotheism by using the word to describe other things they believed existed.

The word "Elohim" is what scholars call morphologically plural. What that means is the way that it spelled is plural. In Hebrew, words that end in "im" are plural. However, the meaning of the word through most places in the OT are singular.

Remember that YHWH is a comepletely unique elohim. One other elohim in the OT is identified with YHWH. In Judaism, there are Two Powers in Heaven.

Genesis 19:24

24 Then YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven,

Notice the wording of this passage. You have YHWH twice not only that, YHWH is sending something from YHWH. Why would He send something from Himself?

Amos 4:11

I have wrought destruction among you, as when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; You have become like a brand plucked from burning. Yet you have not turned back to Me- declares YHWH

From the first word and last two words of this verse we can tell that the speaker is YHWH, but notice who YHWH says destroyed Sodom and Gemorrah. YHWH uses both 1st and 3rd person.

Genesis 22
11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.

Here again we have the angel of the Lord(which is God as you can tell from Genesis 22:1 God was the one doing the testing and he confirms this by saying that Abraham did not keep his son from "Me") Notice in verse, twelve however the angel of the Lord says he knows that Abraham fears God(3rd person) but hasn't kept his son from Me(1st person).

For more information from a purely Jewish source look at The Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal who was a Jew and believes the doctrine is heretical but admits that it wasn't heretical until after the 2nd century(Just like to point out that the Bible mentions that the Jews would have a hardening of the heart until the full number of the gentiles, so I think its curious that this doctrine wasn't heretical until after Jesus came along.

Exodus 23
20 “Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him."

Now this one is a little harder to understand unless you see him put it together so for those interested it starts around 1:06:00

To summarize as best I can though, the Name or My name is an OT way of saying YHWH. So when He says I am going send an angel..for he will not pardon your transgression, since MY NAME is in Him. This is God saying that Angel is my visible form. Another example of this can be seen when the Jews call the Ark of the covenant the Name, which is the Hebrew word HaShem.

Great Vid. I am tired of typing so enjoy hope some of you watch it great video when it comes to proving the doctrine of the Trinity has always been part of Judaism/Christianity.

www.youtube.com...

edit on 8-7-2014 by ServantOfTheLamb because: I noticed the video wasnt working on my screen so I posted the youtube link

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Ill have to watch the video later, when I have wifi access on my phone, but I found your synopsis interesting. S&F

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Its great. Did you ever get my reply to your PM?.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Did you ever get my reply to your PM?.

Yes, I did, but I havent had much time to educate myself on the subject. I just finished metering Zeph 1:1-9 yielding 294 syllables, and Zeph 1:10-18 yielding 315 syllables. Together, its 609 syllables that takes you from 714 BC to 21 BC, meaning that Zephanaiah was written in 630 BC. Isaiah 53 was written in 714 BC, and 21 BC was Herod's constuction on the temple. Im still trying to figure out the rest in between. This is all according to the meter, not necessarily scholarly dates.

Sorry, this is of topic, but I will get back to your PM.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You may enjoy this, or not.





The Jewish God is 4 fold, add the creation and you have a 5 fold god.

Thanks op .It's long but very well worth the watch .I now understand how a lot of members can be confused when referring to God/god in the OT .It also gives me a much better understanding of some of the harder passages and a way to look at what might be implied . tks a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb This is a bit ot but thought I would share

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The term Elohim describes :
The God of Israel
the gods of nations(1 kg 11:33)
the gods of Yahweh's council(Psalm 82:1)
Demons(Deut 32:17)
Deceased human dead(1 Samuel 28:13)
Angels(Genesis 32:1-2 ; 36:7) He mentions that some of these depend on how you take a few passages.

I've listened to one of this guy's videos about a week ago because someone was talking about it on another web site.

I think that he is way off, thinking that the Bible is treating the other people's gods as actual Gods, then interpreting it to mean really fallen angels pretending to be gods.

Jesus referred to a place in the OT talking about "gods", obviously meaning people who had roles of responsibilities as rulers and judges.

I think he may have a point for making such a claim . We see many instances in the Bible when a angel appears to someone and they bow down to them and the angel corrects them and tells them not to do that . If in the case of the dividing of nations ,each nation has it's own angel and that angel appeared to them the same thing may have happened ,except without the correction being made .Even in the new testament we find people thinking that Paul was a God . a reply to: jmdewey60

a reply to: the2ofusr1 So i suppose i can take the dye off my cow now. Thanks matt and trey.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Moses is called an elohim also. Elohim is probably "power" or "lord", as in someone of a higher status or position.

The divine council is the council of El, not of YHWH. YWHH is one of the elohim that is subservient to El, the High God.

a reply to: zardust

Want to give biblical references?

a reply to: zardust

Moses is called an elohim also.

It doesn't.
That is more YouTube video nonsense.
If you look at the verses claimed to say that, "god" or elohim is the object, meaning a thing given to Moses.
So it is an attribute that lends the recipient an air of authority, much like the verse mentioned elsewhere, that Jesus calls the leaders of the Jews, gods.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Nope. I know the Moses part is translated as judge and it's in relation to pharaoh so it's in exodus.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

If in the case of the dividing of nations ,each nation has it's own angel . . .

You could point to the mention in Daniel of one who stood for Persia,

" . . . the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me . . ."

but it could mean literally, a prince.

So my point is, 'let's look at specific instances'.

a reply to: zardust

Nope. I know the Moses part is translated as judge and it's in relation to pharaoh so it's in exodus.

There are two verses relating to Moses and elohim applying to him.

He is made a elohim to Pharaoh.
To Aaron, he is elohim.

I was wrong the translators don't translate it as judge

exodus 7:1

NET ©
So the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God 1 to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2
NIV ©
Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
NASB ©
Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.
NLT ©
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh. Your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet; he will speak for you.
MSG ©
GOD told Moses, "Look at me. I'll make you as a god to Pharaoh and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
BBE ©
And the Lord said to Moses, See I have made you a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet.
NRSV ©
The LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.
NKJV ©
So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

The verse that had me thinking was Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Through out scripture there are Angels that appear to man in different forms .Some times unknown to the person they are talking to .Other times they announce themselves as such .Think of Abraham with the three .or Lot when he was in Sodom . Usually or I would think that Gods people had a special relationship with Him and knew Angels were His messengers .Other peoples may not have been tutored in such things and may have got the wrong ideas .That could explain the pantheon of gods . a reply to: jmdewey60

a reply to: the2ofusr1

. . . may have got the wrong ideas .That could explain the pantheon of gods . . .

I doubt that, but I don't think that is what the speaker in the video.
By the way, he is someone who was specifically tasked with the job of finding support in the OT for a general concept that the Trinity can sit in comfortably.
Why I am pointing that out is that if he is being subsidized for that research, chances are he will come up with some sort of results to justify the expenditure for supporting his research.
It comes off as rather contrived, to me, and all supported by a questionable thesis based on a single verse that could more easily be interpreted differently.

Angels, that is something I am looking into currently by way of studying the Book of Enoch.
I bought a commentary from a normally respectable publisher, the Hermeneia series, along with the Kindle version of the new translation that goes along with that commentary.
I think something like that, Enoch, would better support the idea of some sort of tribe of angels mistakenly being worshiped as gods.

I think you do have a point in your post about the person in Revelation making the comment on appropriate worship, as if the writer had Enoch in mind.
I see a lot of that, reading Enoch, as if the NT is clarifying things brought up in Enoch.

a reply to: zardust

Want to tell me what manuscripts you are reading this from?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Do you have a point? You don't believe me? Or my sources are wrong? On what count are you denying what I say? I posted 8 versions calling Moses Elohim.

Do I really need to give you manuscript evidence. Sheesh