Loss of cooling in Spent Fuel Pool (SFP) #5... temperature is slowly rising.

a reply to: Psynic

The plant was in full operation at the time of the earthquake, with one of it's six reactors temporarily shut down for maintenance.

Might just be misunderstanding, but only three reactors were operating at the Plant at the time of the quake.

. Nuclear reactors 4, 5, and 6 were undergoing routine maintenance and were not operating,

Time line

4, 5 and 6 reactor cores did not melt down. #4 fuel pool partially did and remains precarious. 5 and 6 are schedule for decommissioning. Rick in VA also stated this.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Psynic

The plant was in full operation at the time of the earthquake, with one of it's six reactors temporarily shut down for maintenance.

5 and 6 are schedule for decommissioning. Rick in VA also stated this.

There was no plan to decommission any reactors at Fukushima Daiichi prior to the Earthquake of March 11, 2011.

Please stop suggesting the decommissioning was business as usual.

a reply to: Psynic

Please stop suggesting the decommissioning was business as usual.

I'm not.

5 and 6 are now being scheduled for decommissioning.

Is that better? Geez, mince words. Thanks for admitting they weren't operating, anyway.

originally posted by: ThisIsMyRifle
a reply to: RickinVa

I saw this story earlier today on a news website. I find it hard to believe that it would take that long to repair a hole measuring just millimeters that is allowing the stored cooling water to leak out. As for using sea water, have they not learned from the past that using sea water adds to the problem? With a leak already present, the use of salt water would be a bad idea except in extreme emergency.

I visualize trying to repair an actively leaky hole, and if they cant remove the fuel to weld it im not sure how rhey will do that other than a silly putty/gum type substance - like someone mentioned. I'm sure they will at least delay things with fixes but eventually they have to get that stuff out of the tank.
Maybe they can stick a hose to it and move that fuel to whereever it is they put it. I cant imagine the life of the person who does this for a living.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Psynic

Please stop suggesting the decommissioning was business as usual.

I'm not.

5 and 6 are now being scheduled for decommissioning.

Is that better? Geez, mince words. Thanks for admitting they weren't operating, anyway.

Sorry, but your original statement, "The plant is being decommissioned and has been shut-down since before the quake" makes it sound like reactors 5 and 6 were shut down as PART of the decommissioning.

In a geo engineering article I read it stated 4-years of fuel rod removal meant more could go wrong than right. Even though the are no firm stats I can find on the chances of success, engineer Annie Gunderson included the following reasons for her conclusions: bad weather, quakes, salt water corroding things, ground shifting due to liquidification, human error (leaving valves on, having them bump into one another), and clearly we can add leaks.

It's going to take 4 years at best so I feel nothing positive about this endeavor. Unless they can secure things so none of the above can impact things for the worse it is a bomb waiting for a trigger. They can't level the ground if it begins to soften. The could, however, put something into place so another quake or tsunami won't cause even more damage. I know they need to get those rods moved but it seems preventative measures should be done simultaneously.

Also - I heard of an ice wall yet this makes no sense to me. What if the power goes out? How will they keep ice cool if they can't keep the reactors cool?

a reply to: Dianec

Also - I heard of an ice wall yet this makes no sense to me. What if the power goes out? How will they keep ice cool if they can't keep the reactors cool?

All of the measures being employed by Tepco are really stop gap, not final solutions. The reason for that is there are no final solutions for what has occurred. The worst case scenario has become real, the stuff is melted and outside containment.

The only thing that diminishes radioactivity is decay over time.

Since walking away isn't an option they continue to dream up fantastic notions that really only delay what is going to occur there for the foreseeable future. Slow release of radioactive materials to the environment.

a reply to: intrptr

I say they drill underneath the site, remove as much nuclear material as they can, and then detonate some tactical nukes to collapse and bury the site.

originally posted by: Dianec
In a geo engineering article I read it stated 4-years of fuel rod removal meant more could go wrong than right. Even though the are no firm stats I can find on the chances of success, engineer Annie Gunderson included the following reasons for her conclusions: bad weather, quakes, salt water corroding things, ground shifting due to liquidification, human error (leaving valves on, having them bump into one another), and clearly we can add leaks.

It's going to take 4 years at best so I feel nothing positive about this endeavor. Unless they can secure things so none of the above can impact things for the worse it is a bomb waiting for a trigger. They can't level the ground if it begins to soften. The could, however, put something into place so another quake or tsunami won't cause even more damage. I know they need to get those rods moved but it seems preventative measures should be done simultaneously.

Also - I heard of an ice wall yet this makes no sense to me. What if the power goes out? How will they keep ice cool if they can't keep the reactors cool?

You've got a lot of the facts right, no mean feat in itself.

Arnie Gundersen, however might not approve of his sex change.

You're right about the 'ice-wall' being dependent on electricity, something very few others have considered. I hadn't considered that situation for the fundamental reason that the ice-wall couldn't work in the first place. It's a bucket without a bottom, for one thing.

The fuel rod removal is even more fraught with difficulty than the factors you mention make it out to be.

The rods are twisted, bent and littered with debris making their extraction problematic, to say the least.

As far as making things safe in the event of another earthquake is concerned, there really is no way that can be achieved.

The site is now packed with hundreds and hundreds of flimsy tanks filled with radioactive waste water, which will not survive another quake like the one that started this terrible chain of events.

If the earthquake damaged reactor building #4 collapses, it's spent fuel pool could go critical, bringing ALL fuel on site into a conflagration with 14,000 times the amount of fissionable material as Hiroshima. Yes that figure is correct, fourteen thousand times greater than Hiroshima. That would be GAME OVER for Japan and could force the evacuation of much of North America as well.

I wish I could say something to give you some sort of hope.

According to NHK World, cooling has resumed at the No. 5 reactor:

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant says it has restarted the cooling system for a pool that contains spent fuel. The system had been suspended for 2 days due to a mechanical problem.

Source

Fukushima Daiichi, the gift that keeps on giving.

a reply to: Psynic

Thank GE and the good ol' US of A for that. I know GE is helping when and where they "can" (choose to). Unfortunately this is a VERY serious issue which a) the Japanese figure they don't need/ want much outside help and b) there really aren't that many experts who are free to travel about and do what they can to help.

In fact this is an issue which goes beyond the borders of Japan. Many countries with ageing nuke facilities are experiencing difficulties in refurbishments let alone maintenance. This is mainly due to something called "Brain drain" on a region. Most of the people who designed and built the CANDU reactors in Canada for instance are very old, long retired, if not dead. And nothing has been done to seek replacements/ mentors to continue and share the knowledge base. Therefore, refurbishments and the like are taking place at a snails pace while everyone figures it out as they go. Those user manuals are quite thick, and complicated when you have to decipher them yourself.

a reply to: Freenrgy2

Riggght…

Too late. Any attempt to seal the stuff up will only cause more explosive gas (due to ongoing fission) build up and blow the lid off.

Thats part of the problem. Moving it spreads it, sealing it up is impossible. Thats what all the containment and reassuring safeguards were designed to prevent. In retrospect we now see that in total meltdown there is no containment thick enough. Neither is there any measure forthcoming that will now prevent it from spreading further.

Pandora's box irony. Once the box is opened, the evil is released into the world and it can't be put back. Even prophetic from a certain pov.

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: RickinVa
BTW... this is not a doom porn thread.

There are active measures that can be taken to prevent the SPF from overheating,.... most likely would be pumping in cold sea water for cooling... that's not really a foregone conclusion.

Introducing saltwater into a nuclear reactor means it can never be used again, I would assume the same goes for a SFP, and since #5 & 6 are scheduled to be decommissioned anyways, I guess it really doesn't matter at this point.

But it very much points out the continuing problems at Fukushima and that only more problems will arise in the future.

Did you think they were going to restart these reactors?

They've been inundated with seawater from the day the Tsunami struck.

Nothing was ever "scheduled to be decommissioned". The shutting down of all reactors at Fukushima Daiichi is a reaction to an overwhelming and out of control disaster that could yet bring about the end of Japan.

All it would take is another earthquake equal to the last.

Well I guess they want to.Don't know which ones.

from Channel News Asia / May 21, 2014 / A Japanese court ruled Wednesday against the restarting of two reactors at a nuclear power plant, acknowledging residents’ safety fears and dealing a blow to the government’s plan to revive nuclear power.

Japan shut down all its nuclear reactors after Fukushima. The two reactors at Fukui resumed operations in August 2012, the first and only ones to do so.

fukushimaupdate.com...

www.straight.com...

a reply to: intrptr

I just like to see stuff get blown up.

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: Psynic

originally posted by: RickinVa
BTW... this is not a doom porn thread.

There are active measures that can be taken to prevent the SPF from overheating,.... most likely would be pumping in cold sea water for cooling... that's not really a foregone conclusion.

Introducing saltwater into a nuclear reactor means it can never be used again, I would assume the same goes for a SFP, and since #5 & 6 are scheduled to be decommissioned anyways, I guess it really doesn't matter at this point.

But it very much points out the continuing problems at Fukushima and that only more problems will arise in the future.

Did you think they were going to restart these reactors?

They've been inundated with seawater from the day the Tsunami struck.

Nothing was ever "scheduled to be decommissioned". The shutting down of all reactors at Fukushima Daiichi is a reaction to an overwhelming and out of control disaster that could yet bring about the end of Japan.

All it would take is another earthquake equal to the last.

Well I guess they want to.Don't know which ones.

from Channel News Asia / May 21, 2014 / A Japanese court ruled Wednesday against the restarting of two reactors at a nuclear power plant, acknowledging residents’ safety fears and dealing a blow to the government’s plan to revive nuclear power.

Japan shut down all its nuclear reactors after Fukushima. The two reactors at Fukui resumed operations in August 2012, the first and only ones to do so.

fukushimaupdate.com...

www.straight.com...

All of Japan's reactors were shut down after Fukushima Daiichi went ballistic.

The PM at the time, Mr. Abe has come out as a major opponent of Nuclear Electric power.

www.youtube.com...

It's these other undamaged reactors your article talks about re-starting, not reactors #5 and #6 at Fukushima Daiichi.

a reply to: intrptr

I hear ya but they could at least make sure robots could survive the area if it came down to humans not being able to get to it at some point. Even that won't help unless they think of something to stop it in its tracks (stopping the decay I assume would end the fears). Someone on this planet must be able to dream something up.

Because nuclear engineering is such a specialty field, and requires a good deal of math there aren't really any crash courses I could easily succeed at. However, I am willing to learn as much as possible. If they could explain what is going on in laymen terms maybe a mind on this plantet will think of something they haven't and bam - they do their thing and make it happen. My hope is that they take in what the public can offer for what its worth. It couldn't hurt. Would just take time.

a reply to: Psynic

That's what I get for not wearing reading glasses so thanks for pointing that out. I hate wearing those things. Arnie - not Annie. :-).

"If" Fukushima went off it would probably set off the other reactors around Japan. I hear 14K Hiroshima's and assume that isn't including the others an explosion would trigger (50 or so).

It's hard to imagine how anyone from that company is coping with the guilt and fear this must be instilling. All governments need to unite on this and get a think tank going. And do it quick. It makes little sense to not make this a priority above all others yet they continue to haggle about oil, war, and who the bigger badder leader is. Is it so big they have shut down on the matter or are the leaders of this world really that dense? At least train the public for what to do "just in case", and hand out potassium iodine.

originally posted by: Dianec
I hear ya but they could at least make sure robots could survive the area if it came down to humans not being able to get to it at some point.

They could build robots to do just that. Problem is, they see no profit in it.

Even that won't help unless they think of something to stop it in its tracks (stopping the decay I assume would end the fears). Someone on this planet must be able to dream something up.

Oh plenty of people have my friend, but the problem is that any threatening invention or idea that does brilliantly come about, it's patent is quickly purchased and buried away.

Many of them are probably sitting next to Tesla's technology in some Raiders of the Lost Ark, Above Top Secret, Government compound.

~$heopleNation

www.tepco.co.jp...
The fuel pool is now being coolled by the system that regularly cools the reactors.

It is not only the reactors that are the problem there. All the spent rods were stored on top of the reactors. which makes it much worse. The clean up is misleading too. They have meters all over showing lower levels. Where clean up was only done around the meters, levels have been tested much higher just a few feet away where cleanup was not done. Even in school zones with children present. Not to mention that they are pumping the cooling waste directly into the oceans there now. Much worse of a disaster than many think.