Sunni vs Shia= the Ultimate hypocracy

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Just as I predicted , you can't give me a solid answer ..

The answer was solid enough. It's not my problem if it makes you feel like you are on shaky ground.

I will however give you MY answer about the salaf.

Salafis are those who don't follow any madhab blindly ... they only follow Quran and Sunnah.

Simple as that !

Salafis have created their own madhab and called it "salafi", simply because they didn't like any other school as Hanafi, Hanbali, Sha'afi, Malaki. So they create their own. Salafism arose from the teachings of al-Wahhab, and is very, very new, having arisen only within the last 150 years or so. It amuses me to see you say that they don't "blindly follow any madhab", and only follow Qur'an and sunnah - evident Qur'an is not enough for them, and so they must add sunnah just as Catholics have to add "tradition" to bolster their teachings, which otherwise are unsupportable.

Salafi is just another "school", while eschewing the label of a "school". It is what it is, whatever label one wants to apply to it.

Through all that, you still could not give me any Qur'anic authority for following your version of the salaf, so I rest my case. Giving me YOUR answer is giving me "opinion", which I specified was not to be used, in keeping with the limitations you set yourself. You have failed to show me where the doctrine of salafism can be found in the Qur'an. All you have said is "it's there, and in sunnah, just trust me", the latter half of which is irrelevant, since we have limited authority to Qur'an only, and the former half of which is bogus, or you would have given me the reference.

"
Twelver Shia Muslims believe that Imam Mahdi _ may Allah hasten his advent_ is the Twelfth Imam, who was born in 869 and was hidden by God at the age of five (874). He is still alive but has been in occultation, "awaiting the time that God has decreed for his return"."

Am I missing something?

No, that pretty well covers it. In your own quote there, it says that Imam Mahdi is not here, he is in "occultation". That's all you need to verify that he is not leading Shi'a at all. One cannot lead when one is not present TO lead. Instead, Shi'a have been left to their own devices until the return of Imam Mahdi. It verifies what I told you above in the matter.

Therefore, Salafism, by your own words, is no more authoritative or correct than Shi'ism.

So, what the hell is the fight about here?

a reply to: lostbook
Hey guys of course Sunni and Shia have differences but it does not mean that the problem is these differences in the middle east. The problem is the puppet corrupted monarchies and dictators who are supporting radicalism. Shias pray behind Sunnies in Mecca so what is the problem. However Assad is secular but It had a Shia family, So Why did the people of Syria ellect Assad again while most of them are Sunni not Shia !
Why does Iran support Hamas while Iran is Shia and Hamas is a Sunni even Salafi.
Why did Khomeini as a Shia elected the last friday of Ramadan month as the day of Palestine. While there is no Shia in Palestine !
So the point is something else, Sunni-Shia is an excuse. All of this happened after Israel could not defeat the Shias in Lebanon in 33 day war and Sunnis in Gaza in 22 day war.

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Salafis are those who don't follow any madhab blindly ... they only follow Quran and Sunnah.
Simple as that !

No one in this world should follow anything blindly and All muslims are after Koran and Sunnah. All of us should be agaunst Bidat.
So you are right we should seek the truth among Salafs but which Salaf. Salafs were not unanimous.
Imamate is in Koran and there are hadithes which show that not in Shia books but in Sunni books !

ONLY give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadith to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

Honestly I say I admire your tolerance. So I want to ask you a simple question as yourself. Most of Sunnis think the wudu of Shias is wrong and they do not pray behind Shias while Shias do pray behind Sunnis.
So would you give us the verse of Koran about how you get wudu with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadith to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
It is no problem. We are not against each other we just want to find the Bidat and ommit it. I am a Salafist but a Special Salaf who Koran orders us to love and follow !

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Just as I predicted , you can't give me a solid answer ..

The answer was solid enough. It's not my problem if it makes you feel like you are on shaky ground.

I will however give you MY answer about the salaf.

Salafis are those who don't follow any madhab blindly ... they only follow Quran and Sunnah.

Simple as that !

Salafis have created their own madhab and called it "salafi", simply because they didn't like any other school as Hanafi, Hanbali, Sha'afi, Malaki. So they create their own. Salafism arose from the teachings of al-Wahhab, and is very, very new, having arisen only within the last 150 years or so. It amuses me to see you say that they don't "blindly follow any madhab", and only follow Qur'an and sunnah - evident Qur'an is not enough for them, and so they must add sunnah just as Catholics have to add "tradition" to bolster their teachings, which otherwise are unsupportable.

Salafi is just another "school", while eschewing the label of a "school". It is what it is, whatever label one wants to apply to it.

Through all that, you still could not give me any Qur'anic authority for following your version of the salaf, so I rest my case. Giving me YOUR answer is giving me "opinion", which I specified was not to be used, in keeping with the limitations you set yourself. You have failed to show me where the doctrine of salafism can be found in the Qur'an. All you have said is "it's there, and in sunnah, just trust me", the latter half of which is irrelevant, since we have limited authority to Qur'an only, and the former half of which is bogus, or you would have given me the reference.

"
Twelver Shia Muslims believe that Imam Mahdi _ may Allah hasten his advent_ is the Twelfth Imam, who was born in 869 and was hidden by God at the age of five (874). He is still alive but has been in occultation, "awaiting the time that God has decreed for his return"."

Am I missing something?

No, that pretty well covers it. In your own quote there, it says that Imam Mahdi is not here, he is in "occultation". That's all you need to verify that he is not leading Shi'a at all. One cannot lead when one is not present TO lead. Instead, Shi'a have been left to their own devices until the return of Imam Mahdi. It verifies what I told you above in the matter.

Therefore, Salafism, by your own words, is no more authoritative or correct than Shi'ism.

So, what the hell is the fight about here?

Smh we are ahul hadeeth but follow the principals in the madhabs......


So where is this " hidden imam" ?

That's a serious question?

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Salafis are those who don't follow any madhab blindly ... they only follow Quran and Sunnah.
Simple as that !

No one in this world should follow anything blindly and All muslims are after Koran and Sunnah. All of us should be agaunst Bidat.
So you are right we should seek the truth among Salafs but which Salaf. Salafs were not unanimous.
Imamate is in Koran and there are hadithes which show that not in Shia books but in Sunni books !

ONLY give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadith to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

Honestly I say I admire your tolerance. So I want to ask you a simple question as yourself. Most of Sunnis think the wudu of Shias is wrong and they do not pray behind Shias while Shias do pray behind Sunnis.
So would you give us the verse of Koran about how you get wudu with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadith to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.
It is no problem. We are not against each other we just want to find the Bidat and ommit it. I am a Salafist but a Special Salaf who Koran orders us to love and follow !

Where in the Quran is it ? Please tell me ....

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere
Thank you for your attention. I present this site which has a good explanation.
quransmessage.com...
No I do not think it is from Shias I think it is unbiased. A Bidat had entered in muslims beliefs which is contrary to the exact text of Koran.
.

originally posted by: maes2
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere
Thank you for your attention. I present this site which has a good explanation.
quransmessage.com...
No I do not think it is from Shias I think it is unbiased. A Bidat had entered in muslims beliefs which is contrary to the exact text of Koran.
.

Thanks for the link , ill have a look

However i was asking where in the quran does can we find imamat?

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Smh we are ahul hadeeth but follow the principals in the madhabs......
So where is this " hidden imam" ?
That's a serious question?

Jews say their Messiah son of David (Jesus) is not born. Christians say Jesus was born and they killed him then he raised alive. Muslims say Jesus was born and they want to kill him (but they could not) and he saved by God alive.

and for their saying, 'we killed the messiah, jesus the son of mary, the messenger (and prophet) of allah. ' they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but to them, he (the crucified) had been given the look (of prophet jesus). those who differ concerning him (prophet jesus) are surely in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of supposition, and (it is) a certainty they did not kill him. (157)
-Koran 4:157

And muslims believe that Jesus spoke while he was an infant and Jesus was a prophet while he was an infant.

so she (Mary) pointed to him (prophet jesus). but they replied: 'how can we speak with a baby in the cradle? ' (koran 19:29)
he (the baby Jesus) said: 'i am the worshiper of allah. allah has given me the book and made me a prophet. (30)

So a fair Sunni scholar never say that What Shia claim about Mahdi is impossible. But he says it is not proven to him.
And never think there is a singularity in Islam among sects. It is a spectrum. For example if you refer to the book "(yanabe al-mawadah v2-p387-392 writen by al-qunduzi the sunni scholar (ینابیع المودة سلیمان القندوزی))"
You see he also recognizes twelve leaders and name them one by one and he also believe that Mahdi is alive hidden from eyes. While qunduzi was one of the great sunni scholars. And I think he was Hanafi Madhab.

And that Mahdi is alive, there are some evidences in history, Koran and hadithes and there are stories of people throughout history who saw him. Do not look at me that way ! it is not odder than story of Jesus.

Any how I try to follow the Salafs that these verses of Koran are about them :

o family of the house, allah only wishes to distance fault from you, and to cleanse you, and to purify you abundantly. (--Koran 33:33)

This house is house of Fatima.
The Salafs who Surah of Insan was revealed about them particularly again Fatima and his family and in general about all good people.
Particularly Salafs who are mentioned in the hadith Ahl al-Kisa by Aisha.
And Salafs who Koran says :

say: 'for this i ask of you no wage except the love of the (prophet's) relatives. we will add good to whosoever gains a good deed. allah is the forgiving and the thanker. ' (-Koran 42:23)

Shias claim that they are followers of Ahlul Bait. However this is a claim. Of course there are radical and deaf and blind people among them like other sects. But Prophet of Islam and his Ahlul Bait belong to humanity not any sect and not even muslims.

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Thanks for the link , ill have a look
However i was asking where in the quran does can we find imamat?

Ok now I try to bring some evidences. It is a long story and everything starts from Abraham pbuh both in Koran and Torah.
I present you two links from our little community you can take a look at them !
wup-forum.com...
wup-forum.com...
Again it is not a Shia site but somewhere that different thoughts are welcomed. A place for wakeup !!!

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Smh we are ahul hadeeth but follow the principals in the madhabs......


So where is this " hidden imam" ?

That's a serious question?

The hidden Imam is alleged to be in a place called "ghayba", which doesn't really translate to much of anything at all, and so is usually represented in English as "occultation", meaning "hidden" or "blocked from view". It's been explained to me in terms I can grasp as like being in "another dimension".

I have a personal question which you don't really need to answer if you don't want to. It arises from the way you speak - er, write - but are you familiar with Shaykh Gilani?

As ahlul hadeeth, how do you determine which hadith are sahih?

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere

Smh we are ahul hadeeth but follow the principals in the madhabs......


So where is this " hidden imam" ?

That's a serious question?

The hidden Imam is alleged to be in a place called "ghayba", which doesn't really translate to much of anything at all, and so is usually represented in English as "occultation", meaning "hidden" or "blocked from view". It's been explained to me in terms I can grasp as like being in "another dimension".

I have a personal question which you don't really need to answer if you don't want to. It arises from the way you speak - er, write - but are you familiar with Shaykh Gilani?

As ahlul hadeeth, how do you determine which hadith are sahih?

Is he of human flesh?

Why is he in hiding ?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Yes, he is of human flesh.

Why did God Himself (azwj) place the Imam (aj) in Ghayba? For many reasons, but some of those reasons are hidden from us.

Do you remember the story of Al-Khidr (as) and Musa (as)? The reasons of God may be unknown to us, but they are always for the best.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere
Why did God Himself (azwj) place the Imam (aj) in Ghayba? For many reasons, but some of those reasons are hidden from us.

Yes and of course one of that is because they wanted to kill him. It is good that muslims think why Imam Hasan al-Askari was kept in a military place most of his life so that he became called as Askari (one who lives in a military place). They knew that Mahdi is son of Hassan al Askari from descendants of Hussain ibn Ali.
Corrupted monarchies wanted to kill him the same as other eleven imams.

a reply to: maes2

But why was the essential in the eyes of God (azwj)? God could certainly conquer evil rulers!

Therefore you must ask why from HIS standpoint. The Imam's presence withholds the chastisement of the world. He prays for us, and his prayers are answered. His occultation allows us to prepare for his coming and become better Muslims in that process. Recognition of him disallows us from pledging allegiance to a fallible and corrupt leader, flag, system, etc.

It is a time of confusion, a time of testing that God allowed - it is God's sifting of who belongs to HIM and who does not. In this time these things will become apparent.

We are being tested, and sifted... until there rises above those things, true men of God, who, in their purity of faith stand behind the Imam for what is right and just in God's eyes, rather than our own.

Yet, some of the reasons are yet hidden from us... only to be understood later.

a reply to: OpinionatedB
There are somethings that one can not explain it easily. I watched a movie when a Hanafi child was explaining how he saw Fatima and his son Mahdi and how they helped him to cure. It was about 10 or 20 years ago. Unfortunately he was killed when he was a teenage by radical terrorists as Imam Mahdi had told him so. And he wanted to be buried in Imam Reza shrine. I understand that people may think I am stupid to believe such things. They are right. People should not believe anything easily and without proof.
But these are what it is proven to me from many ways and many aspects.
.

a reply to: maes2

It's not weird to believe. Everyone who believes, has their reasons.... usually personal reasons. Usually good reasons.

There is no need for any tafseer and comment, these verses of Allah are vivid :
Satan never says that he wants to deceive people he says

he swore to both: 'indeed, i am to you among the advisers. ' (7:21)

Takfir is the wrong way. Koran tells the story of Christians and Jews so that different sects and thoughts of muslims learn from it.
Quote:

the jews say the nazarenes are not on anything, and the nazarenes say it is the jews who are not on anything. yet they both read the book. and those who do not know say like their saying. allah will judge between them their disputes on the day of resurrection. (2:113) who does greater harm than he who prevents his name to be remembered in the mosques of allah and strives to destroy them? those, they will not enter them except in fear. and for them shame in this world and a great punishment in the next. (2:114)

There are radicals among muslims from any sect Shia, Sunni, Salafi that they believe other muslims have nothing from Islam in their hands. And they think all other muslims have nothing from Islam totally. They ruin mosques, churches and where ever Allah is praised.
Koran says they are in hell.
So every muslim has a duty to withstand however he can against oppression on not only Muslims but even Christians and Jews who are under protection of Islam particularly.
And if it gets necessary a Jihad against them is necessary even if those terrorists have Koran in one of their hands and flag of prophet of Islam in their other hand and sign of long prayers in their face. If it gets necessary they should be killed. Even Lucifer had a long experience of prayers and he believes in God and He knew that Adam pbuh was caliph of Allah on earth and he believes in the other world, But he is still Lucifer enemy of humanity.

a reply to: maes2

And if it gets necessary a Jihad against them is necessary even if those terrorists have Koran in one of their hands and flag of prophet of Islam in their other hand and sign of long prayers in their face. If it gets necessary they should be killed. Even Lucifer had a long experience of prayers and he believes in God and He knew that Adam pbuh was caliph of Allah on earth and he believes in the other world, But he is still Lucifer enemy of humanity.

I have heard Christian preachers say much the same thing - "even Satan quotes scripture". As a matter of fact, it is written in the Christian Bible, at James 2:19 -

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.