Symbolism of the Fuente Magna Bowl.

The Fuente Magna bowl is used to support claims that there were links between ancient Sumeria and South America, having been roported as found near lake Titicaca;

he Fuente Magna Bowl was found accidentally by a worker from the CHUA Hacienda, property of the Manjon family located near Lake Titicaca about 75-80 km from the city of La Paz, Bolivia . The site where it was found had not been studied for artifacts previously. The Fuente Magna is beautifully engraved in earthen-brown both inside and out and bears zoological motifs and anthropomorphic characters within

What i'd like to do here is look closely at the actual symbolism of the bowl itself in order to deduce when and where it was most likely produced.



It has been claimed the writing on the bowl resembles proto-Sumerian or Elamite but it doesn't and any suggested translations are useless, it actually most closely resembles Neo Assyrian cuneiform albeit arranged in an incorrect manner with sign irregularities, this would date to around 9th century BC and indicate whoever produced the bowl was a decent copyist but non-literate, or of course an incompetent modern hoaxer.



The pattern motif seen within the bowl is that of the Labyrinth which is attested in the same form from Babylon, so again consistent with the Neo Assyrian period and greater region.



The birth giving Goddess is probably of Indo-European type, along with the twin serpent ourabos decoration around the rim, but such influence could also be found in Phonecia which is the most likely place of origin for the bowl if authentic.



On the outside one finds what looks like the constellation Hydra of the Babylonians in the form of the extended Dragon.



On the other outer side is the curious motif of two copulating crocodiles, which overall indicates consistent concern with water, crocodiles and dragons and the Labyrinth, these themes were all linked, the crocodile suggesting the Egyptian take on things albeit the iconography is crude and none standard, but given the overall mixing of regional styles and motifs the only group likely to have produced such would be the Phonecians.

This type of bowl was used for mixing in Phonecia and the greater region and below can be seen a basic example from 2400 BC, or a more refined example here of a Dolomite cosmetic mixing bowl from around the 9th century BC, the likely date for the Fuente Magna.



So it is a very interesting piece and quality wise looks nothing like your average hoax, i tend to come down on the side of it being genuine Phonecian, of course how it came to be found at Lake Titicaca i cannot say or if indeed it ever was.

I would expect that if a forger had produced a bowl in Phonecian style the claimants for authenticity would at least have had the background understanding to have been claiming it as evidence of Phonecian ancient contact rather than of the Proto-Sumerian period, which the bowl clearly isn't, so stupids but innocent

Wanted to add that the labyrinth pattern you mention can be found all over Mesoamerican and South American artwork.

Harte

There seems to be ample evidence to suggest the world was much more widely traveled in ancient times than we once thought.
I've always had the gut instinct that many of the secrets to past civilizations will be found under the sea, but it would take an act of God to get history rewritten properly.

a reply to: Harte


Yes most cultures will have some form of it, seen there probably closest to examples from Babylonia. It has been considered also that what i identify as the Babylonian constellation Hydra resembles Quetzlcoatl and so that is taken as Meso American features, but not really likely on a bowl that has phoenician styling and proportions.



a reply to: nugget1

Phoenicians are the most likely contenders for any ancient peoples travelling to South America from Europe or the Near East, having had colonies in places like Spain and North Africa and being used to making long voyages.

Or a Phoenician traveller/merchant settled within a Meso American village and incorporated new influences with old ones. Finding one oopart is one thing, if we were to see yet another similar bowl in or around Lake Titicaca or any Meso American site would be highly curious indeed.


As to the writing, I'd be a bit surprised if it was simply an illiterate artist but I suppose any things possible. When I think about some of the masonry at Pumu Punku only 45 miles from LaPaz, and notice what appear to me to be carvings of different ethnic groups leads me to believe this area would have been a major cultural hub and experienced a lot of travelers or more than we'd likely assign credit to.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

I don't think you'd expect a craftsman of that period to be literate, generally you'd expect them though to faithfully carve what was expected, in this case some of the signs appear the wrong way around such as the eight directional 'Dingir' sign for 'God', which the signs are probably naming.



But as the medium is stone it appears the craftsman has removed stone from around the intended signs to create them in raised relief and may have had a template which he reverse placed against the surface thus getting things the wrong way around, rather than scratching them in, so considerable effort and skill involved and why this is unlikely to be a modern forgery as they go for the easily produced and silly, whereas this is a fine piece.

The artifact lacks any provenance. IF it is not a hoax, it could simply be an object transported there by a collector in the modern era. It didn't make it's appearance until recently, although it's claimed to have been found in the late 50's. The site has not turned up any other artifacts, let alone additional artifacts bearing this sort of inscription. It's claimed to have been found by an engineer named Martinez, near his home/farm. Without knowing his background, we can't determine if he had bought this bowl from the trade in ancient Mesopotamian antiquities and then claimed it was "found" on his property. Sadly, artifacts from ancient Mesopotamia have been plundered and sold illegally around the world for ages, to the point we are losing our history for the sake of petty thieves making a quick buck.

The fact is, the Sumerian language was an isolate, and it does not appear in any way, shape, or form on the American continent. The "Inca" (actually the Quechua) do not share any genetic resemblance to the Sumerians, in fact no people in the Americas share any genetic links to any ancient Middle Easterners. There's also the time gap of several thousand years between the bowls alleged dating (3-4000 BCE) and the rise of any civilization in Central America, the earliest of which is the Olmec around 1200 BCE.

My honest belief is that the bowl may be real, but was transported there in the modern era and then a hoax claim of discovery in Bolivia was made.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer


It is enigmatic how something of that size and importance could turn up in Bolivia without any sort of record of it's discovery and transportation, given those responsible for the claims don't really have a clue what they're dealing with and that any collector who would have have parted with a considerable sum of money to purchase it would, then this only adds to the puzzle for me.

As well as the Neo-Assyrian cuneiform there is also on the piece what appears to be a variant of early Semitic script, similar to Paeleo-Hebrew or Proto-Sinaitic, which accords with the overall style of the bowl being from Phoenicia or the Trans-Jordan, the early Phoenician script has a cut-off date, typically 1050 BC. The Phoenician, Hebrew, and other Canaanite dialects were largely indistinguishable before that time, so this perhaps pushes my dating from the 9th century BC back a little

However it got there it is a shame it hasn't been studied more seriously.

I wonder if this is where we got our idea to make pie crusts? Looking at this it looks like a baked pie crust with air holes in it. I guess I'm always thinking of food, it should be filled with banana cream filling and have whipped cream on top.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

It is enigmatic how something of that size and importance could turn up in Bolivia without any sort of record of it's discovery and transportation

How is is enigmatic? We've seen plundered artifacts turn up the world over, with no provenance to speak of how they came to be where they ended up. This bowl, according to the lore from it's finder, was being used as a trough for slopping animals (clearly, not recognized as anything important). It was not 'plucked from the ground' so to speak, so it cannot provide any shred of evidence how it came to be in Bolivia. Had it been found in situ, then there would be some means of determining it's validity. As it is, it's just an artifact that turned up in someone's possession. For all we know, Martinez or an earlier member of his family brought the item to Bolivia.

It all comes down to provenance.

As a side note, Peru's Ministry of Culture returned Sumerian tablets to Iraq in 2008 that were seized at Lima’s Jorge Chávez International Airport, which were part of a bustling trade in plundered ancient artifacts. (Bákula Budge's statement suggested this was to promote the protection of other cultures as well as their own.)

Iraq's museums were looted in the aftermath of the US invasion in the Gulf War, meaning numerous Mesopotamian artifacts could turn up anywhere, with no provenance. Not only do the artifacts lose their provenance and place in historical context (at least those not cataloged), they even become mixed in with fake and counterfeit items. This sort of plundering is nothing new, especially with Mesopotamian artifacts, and Bolivia has suffered this sort of plundering as well.

For all we know, Martinez or someone connected with that farm saw a bowl he/she liked and brought it home, lost interest with it, and it eventually ended up in the barn being used to slop pigs. Did they spirit it out of Iraq? Who knows? Did they buy it off a shady dealer in La Paz? Who knows? But both those scenarios are vastly more likely than a band of Sumerians sailing clear around the globe in an animal-skinned reed boats circa 4,000 BC.

Hello K

You might want to find out who presently has the bowl and query them why they have not used the existing TL technology to determines the date it was made. I suspect a modern or late 19th century forgery is the answer.

a reply to: Hanslune

Supposed to have been done though i can't source any details;

It is claimed that thermoluminescence dating has shown the object to be quite ancient and not a forgery. The same site(a) quotes at length a translation of the text by Clyde Winters, but a German website denounces his translation as nonsense, although it accepts that the Bowl as genuine

Atlantpedia


If they were expecting dates from early Sumeria they'd be disappointed as the two scripts look like early Neo-Assyrian cuneiform and some variant of Proto-Semitic, which suggests a time frame of around 1,000 Bc for those two scripts in conjunction, this probably also argues against it being a forgery as well as aspects of quality and correct styling and proportion for a mixing bowl of that period from that region, they would certainly have had to have been better informed than those promoting it's discovery.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

There isn't the slightest possibility of it being Sumerian which is what i've been pointing out here, but a high probability of it being Phonecian, how it got to Bolivia i really don't have a clue, my interest really lies in the bowl itself as a Near Eastern artifact, seems unlikely though that anyone who purchased it would then discard it as it would be expensive to buy on the black market.

a reply to: Hanslune

I suspect a modern or late 19th century forgery is the answer.

And Bolivia is renown for it's production of counterfeit artifacts, albeit mostly for the tourist trade in Mayan/Inca goods.

Faking the Ancient Andes (by Karen O Bruhns and Nancy L Kelker)
Faking Ancient Mesoamerica (also by Karen O Bruhns and Nancy L Kelker)

Counterfeiting ancient artifacts was a cottage industry in the area, so it is not at all hard to imagine that the forgers branched out to faking other ancient cultural artifacts to supply the worldwide tourism industry.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

As to why the decipherment of the inscription has proven so elusive, ranging from proto-Sumerian, Sumerian, Elamite, to Phoenician, it may be that the inscription is gibberish, copied from examples but not written with any understanding of the language. It may be a pastiche of those ancient languages.

The link given in the OP, to University of California, Riverside (faculty.ucr.edu) belongs to one E. F. Legner, a retired biologist and current Afrocentric adherent, who is pushing the works of Dr. Clyde Winters (a prominent Afrocentric writer). Legner's personal page should not be viewed as supporting the views of UC Riverside. He has amassed a multitude of links and texts pushing the Afrocentric viewpoint, that the cultures in Mexico and Peru were derived from Africa or the ancient Near East.

This Web page might help place these various Afrocentric sources in context, as pertaining to the Fuente Magna:

Sumerians in Bolivia: Afrocentrism and the Potokia Monolith (jasoncolavito.com)

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

Yep and Winters is completely unreliable as a "translator".

If they had a valid TL date it would be proclaimed as such and not hidden.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

From what i've seen of South American fakes they're generally not up too much, i don't think they could have created this bowl, forgers would never take the time to carve out the letters in raised relief, why would they when there's no precedent to require such for authenticity, they'd simply inscribe them.

Given the extent of Phoenician trading networks and voyages there is the possibility it was a traded item from around 1,000 BC into the Americas, eventually finding it's way to Lake Titicaca and left there as an offering.

Divers investigating the odd stone formation off Bimini Island found a shipwreck, that dated to the 1800's - while searching they found that it lay atop an older shipwreck, one that is positively Phoenician and dates to approximately 1000BC! Dr J Manson Valentine of Yale university confirmed the origins of the wreck. Evidence of other ancient shipwrecks exists, in particular a Punic vessel located off the coast of Honduras as well as one found "deeply buried in sand" in Mexico in the 19th century, another which is as yet unidentified off the coast of Texas as well as what was probably a Roman trading vessel off Beverly Massachusetts.

Carthaginian amphorae have been found in the Americas, as well as weapons, oil lamps, glass "trade" beads along the St Lawrence river among other "anomalous" finds.

The Syracusan (Greek 100bc) historian Diodorus said the Carthaginians had a "large island" which was located "far out in the Atlantic ocean" - on which there were "many mountains" and "large navigable rivers". The land was rich in gold, gems, spices, etc. He stated that the Phoenicians had found it "by accident" while founding colonies on the west coast of Africa when some ships got lost. The Atlantic currents do in fact run straight at South America from that region so it would be possible for a lost ship to travel there, and the return voyage would be made easier by following the oceanic currents north then back east across the ocean. In fact this has happened in recent years, a small African fishing boat got lost in a storm and ended up on the coast of Brazil! In 1488 a certain Jean Cousin of Dieppe France, while sailing down the west coast of Africa was caught in a storm and blown across to Brazil. (This is four years prior to Columbus's more famous voyage.) The actual meteorological conditions do support this as probable. Diodorus said they (the Carthaginians) were "keeping it secret"!

Other historians (Herodotus and Polybius) have hinted at its existence, and further explained some of the other colonies. The coast south of Lixus was described as "teeming" with Punic trading colonies. One of the colonies founded by Hanno (500bc) which has not been located correctly was Cerne, it is my opinion this is today the Canary islands

Carthage in the Americas

I wonder if you've ever looked into those claims yourself? If not, why are you using them?

I know that the supposed "Phoenician wreck" off Bimini is bogus.

Marshall McKusick. “The Bimini Underwater Discoveries.” Explorers Journal (March 1980): 40-43. McKusick has a Ph.D. in anthropology from Yale, was state archaeologist for Iowa from 1960 to 1975, and more recently associate professor of anthropology at the University of Iowa. He writes:

“There is a moral to the story of my dive to see the ‘Phoenician’ ship off Bimini: archeological evidence is not often what it appears to be at first glance. Enthusiastic laymen are not trained to evaluate evidence and assess the crucial facts that a professional would observe ...

Source

Obviously, no one can rule out an accidental Atlantic crossing, but the site you linked is so full of crap, I wonder why you would link to it.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

I only link to it as a general resume of what passes for claims of Phoenicians in the Americas, i don't look into any of it myself, but the historical references suggest this did possibly occur.

A Greek historian, Diodorus, reported in 100 BC that the Carthaginians knew of a large island far out in the Atlantic which had many mountains and large navigable rivers. This island was a great source of wealth to them but they kept its location secret. The Phoenicians had discovered it by accident when a ship sailing down the coast of Africa was blown off course by a storm.

That the Phoenicians were familiar with Africa now seems to be accepted fact. According to Greek historian Herodotus, in 600 BC, Pharaoh Necho hired a Phoenician fleet to circumnavigate Africa, from the Red Sea around the Cape of Good Hope and up the West African coast to the Mediterranean. The mission took three years. The travelers stopped each autumn to plant crops, which would be harvested before the fleet again set sail. "The new trend is to believe that the African story is true, although there is no direct evidence except in Herodotus," said Sader. "But after discussing the points, all of the information makes sense." This includes a geographically accurate reference to the voyagers watching the southern sunrise on their right as they sailed west around the tip of Africa, a sight Northern Hemisphere sailors never saw.

Given the proximity of the West African and South American coasts and the prevailing ocean currents, which flow in a westerly direction, Diodorus' claim is not impossible.

Carthaginians in America

I can only look at this in terms of possibilities of how what appears to me a Phoenician bowl turned up at Lake Titicaca, there are plenty of other possible explanations but no certainties, and it isn't for me to say what did or didn't happen because i don't know.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Harte

I only link to it as a general resume of what passes for claims of Phoenicians in the Americas, i don't look into any of it myself, but the historical references suggest this did possibly occur.

The best way to cite historical references is to cite the actual historical reference:

19 1 But now that we have discussed what relates to the islands which lie within the Pillars of Heracles, we shall give an account of those which are in the ocean. For there lies out in the deep off Libya an island1 of considerable size, and situated as it is in the ocean it is distant from Libya a voyage of a number of days to the west. Its land is fruitful, p147much of it being mountainous and not a little being a level plain of surpassing beauty. 2 Through it flow navigable rivers which are used for irrigation, and the island contains many parks planted with trees of every variety and gardens in great multitudes which are traversed by streams of sweet water; on it also are private villas of costly construction, and throughout the gardens banqueting houses have been constructed in a setting of flowers, and in them the inhabitants pass their time during the summer season, since the land supplies in abundance everything which contributes to enjoyment and luxury. 3 The mountainous part of the island is covered with dense thickets of great extent and with fruit-trees of every variety, and, inviting men to life among the mountains, it has cozy glens and springs in great number. In a word, this island is well supplied with springs of sweet water which not only makes the use of it enjoyable for those who pass their life there but also contribute to the health and vigour of their bodies. 4 There is also excellent hunting of every manner of beast and wild animal, and the inhabitants, being well supplied with this game at their feasts, lack of nothing which pertains to luxury and extravagance; for in fact the sea which washes the shore of the island contains a multitude of fish, since the character of the ocean is such that it abounds throughout its extent with fish of every variety. 5 And, speaking generally, the climate of the island is so altogether mild that it produces in abundance the fruits of the trees and the other seasonal fruits for the larger part of the year, so that it would appear that the island, because of its exceptional felicity, were a dwelling-place of a race of gods and not of men.

Source:The Library of History of Diodorus Siculus

Note the part I bolded and underlined.

Do you wonder why the site you linked to doesn't mention these extravagant villas and homes with beautiful gardens?

I'll tell you - it doesn't jibe with their agenda.

Harte
EDIT:
I decided to include this part from the same link incase anyone wanted to argue that tghe island in the above quotation is not the same island your site mentions:

3 The Phoenicians, then, while exploring the coast outside the Pillars for the reasons we have stated and while sailing along the shore of Libya, were driven by strong winds a great distance out into the ocean. And after being storm-tossed for many days they were carried ashore on the island we mentioned above, and when they had observed its felicity and nature they caused it to be known to all men.5

Also note that the Phoenicians, according to Diodorus, spread the news of this island to "all men."

But there aren't any records of the existence of North (or South) America being spread "to all men" by the Phoenicians.

Another part your source (conveniently) leaves out.

H.

a reply to: Harte

The islands Diodoros is certainly referring to are the Balearic Islands, which the Phoenicians colonized. They were a strategic location that could threaten their colonies in N. Africa, not that they didn't offer their own beauty for colonization. These islands did have a native inhabitant, a mix of Iberian and N. African.

The islands deep in the oceans would surely be the Azores, but their remoteness and lack of ores/minerals never made them a strategic location for any empire of the ancient world.

University of Chicago - Diodorus Sicilus

a reply to: Kantzveldt

By the time Phoenicians were attempting to circumnavigate Africa for Pharaoh Necho II they had long ceased to use the cuneiform script (by some 400 years). The fact it is cuneiform means the bowl would have to be at least 1000 BCE or earlier. Not that this sheds any light on whether it is in fact a Phoenician bowl or not. There just aren't any writings from 1000 BCE or earlier of Phoenicians crossing oceans to reach a new continent. At that time, Bolivia would have been primitive, and not have inhabitants living in grand villas.

Regarding your link above "Carthaginians in America," the "map" shown on that site is from a coin, viewed in it's entirety it looks a lot less like a map than just the ground beneath a horse. Click on the image of the coin itself and compare it to their "exaggerated mock up" image of the "map" beneath the horses feet:

Did the Phoenicians Discover the New World?