It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: TheSubversiveOne
One cannot believe in something that does not exist.
When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.
First, no one believes in the great deity The Marnichuk, for this is the first time anyone has mentioned this deity. Only now, after this deity has been mentioned, can it be believed in. In other words, believing in a deity presupposes that one has at least heard about the deity, that the idea of it has been brought to the senses. But at this point, because all that exists of The Marnichuk is its name and the assertion that it is a deity, the only things that can be believed in The Marnichuk’s regard are what have been presented to the senses, namely, the name “The Marnichuk” and the assertion made by me that it is a deity. So far, these are real tangibles that can be believed in.
If I was to go on and assert that The Marnichuk is the puppeteer of all human beings and the creator of the universe, can someone then believe in The Marnichuk? They can say they do, but still, what they are actually believing is my story, the words present to their senses, bolstered by their own thoughts.
If I was to continue and assert that someone once met The Marnichuk and had a conversation with it, and the great deity told him to enjoy a life of pleasure, people might then believe in The Marnichuk and live their life in such a manner. Of course, believing in the Marnichuk as The Marnichuk is still impossible, because at no point was the actual deity present and accounted for. Instead, what they believe in is my story, perhaps solidified by their own credulity.
If the story caught wind and on top of it was built thousands of years of lore and poetry, and it was all canonized into one great book such as the Bible, people would read it, teach it and study it from all angles. From this study and consideration, one might then say “I believe in The Marnichuk”, and continue to pray to what he believes is the actual deity. But realistically, what he believes in is the lore and its commentary, and what he prays to is this belief, or in other words, himself. The teachings and study of the cannon and its commentary isn’t any study about the actual nature of the deity, but about the nature of a literary character of a book. Such is all theology.
Until a deity is present to the senses, it is impossible to be believed in. And until that time, all that is to be believed in are books and commentary. Theism is not a belief in any God, but a belief that the canons, the arguments and the commentaries are true.
originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TheSubversiveOne
"One cannot believe in something that does not exist."
Then our current understanding of Mathematics, complex numbers in particular must present you rather a conundrum.
Existence of anything is probably more to do with one's perception of such given that we most lightly inhabit a holographic universe. Otherwise how could we explain notions such as love and hate or good or evil? They don't actually physically exist but are responsible rather a large percentage of humanities dilemmas and problems.
Science can never physically prove the existence of God. Science can not disporve the existence of God either. Science is the study of finite particles and matter.
What would it take to convince you that you are wrong, in the event that you are in fact wrong?
What would it take convince me that i am wrong? A lot actually. But if you have a solid argument that cant be argued against according to my knowledge in any way. I am open.
originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: spy66
What would it take convince me that i am wrong? A lot actually. But if you have a solid argument that cant be argued against according to my knowledge in any way. I am open.
It would have to be quite the exemplary argument to convince someone of your staunch position. I'm afraid I don't have an argument of that caliber, but if I happen across one, I'll be sure to let you know. In fact, I'll just message it to you on here before posting it on the forums for everyone to pick through.
I know you dont. That is the Whole Clue to all these types of topics where God is involved.
It is the system we are groomed to serve that makes it so. We are not thought to understand the existence of a God. We are thought to understand the system of finite and how it works. If peopel dont understand this the Whole topic is mute from the start. Because we are using wrong knowledge to argue and move forward. If this dosent change it dosent matter who comes up With the truth in the future. No one will believe him or her any way.
originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi
I certenly dont agree With you on any of you arguments.
First of all. If God is thee "infinite" Whiche is the claim. Than God has not disappeared. The infinite can not disappear ever. Where would it disappear to if it takes up all Space possible?
Since Our universe had a beginning as a very small singularity or started out as a finite size. I know for a fact that there is a wast void outside the singularity. I also know that it took a finite time to form the singularity. Because it is not being compressed into a singularity any more it is expanding.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi
I certenly dont agree With you on any of you arguments.
First of all. If God is thee "infinite" Whiche is the claim. Than God has not disappeared. The infinite can not disappear ever. Where would it disappear to if it takes up all Space possible?
Since Our universe had a beginning as a very small singularity or started out as a finite size. I know for a fact that there is a wast void outside the singularity. I also know that it took a finite time to form the singularity. Because it is not being compressed into a singularity any more it is expanding.
Ok, so universe had beginning, very small singularity, or so some scientists claim; Where does your God fit in?
Can you please define the characteristics of the God you believe in?
Is it one mind? A personal mind, with feelings and thoughts and opinions and moods?
Can you define what the existence of God, means to me, how does it affect me? How do you know what this God thinks of me, or wants of me? How do you know God cares about humans in any way at all?