Sources: Lois Lerner’s emails likely gone forever

originally posted by: kruphix
It seems like there is some mis-information going on. It isn't just that one hard drive crashed, it is how the IRS stores emails.

From what I've read, they have a very low limit on how many emails an individual can store at one time...something like around 2000 emails. Anyone that uses email for business can tell you that 2000 emails is very small. I probably get 2000 emails in a single month, and that is probably a conservative estimate. Once you hit that limit, your only option is to archive on your hard drive or delete them. So it is possible that if your hard drive crashes, then you will lose older emails. Remember, not all of her emails are missing...they have a large chunk of them...but they think that the smoking gun is in this group of emails that are missing. In my opinion, that is just the GOP wanting to give something for their supporters to cling onto.

The other thing I am hearing in this thread is that they should all be backed up. At one time they probably were, but a backup is not the same as an archive. A backup is a snapshot of the current state of the system to restore to. To save space, many backup systems overwrite older backups with the newer backups. So at any one point you can probably only restore back to a certain point, not the beginning of time. From what I have read, the IRS did not have an electronic archive system that archived everything.

Is it a poor system...yes, but according to all sources I have read...that is what the IRS had. And in a type of system like this, yes, a single hard drive crash could lose locally archived emails forever.

can we see links to what you've read please....

originally posted by: kruphix

Or are you just making things up on the fly with no supporting sources?

originally posted by: kruphix

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: kruphix

It seems like there is some mis-information going on. It isn't just that one hard drive crashed, it is how the IRS stores emails.

Then why is the official story that Lois Lerner's hard drive had been 'recycled' after it crashed, and that is why her emails are lost forever.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post that explains why.

I did read it.

The other thing I am hearing in this thread is that they should all be backed up. At one time they probably were, but a backup is not the same as an archive. A backup is a snapshot of the current state of the system to restore to. To save space, many backup systems overwrite older backups with the newer backups. So at any one point you can probably only restore back to a certain point, not the beginning of time. From what I have read, the IRS did not have an electronic archive system that archived everything.

The IRS is required by law to back every email up, by law.
I have already posted a link that shows that the IRS has a manual that indicates that all of their emails are in a Microsoft platform that stores the emails externally.
I work for a small company.... not the IRS. We back up everything to our server daily and everything is backed up on tape weekly.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

No, not like that. That is a general policy for government employees that the employees are supposed to follow but I'm sure most don't. That isn't a policy for the IRS that says exactly what they do for their email backups.

Also notice that one of the accepted backup methods for email is "paper". Take a look at this article, it talks about the "save and print" backup method that they tell employees to use.
www.usatoday.com...

Lois has said she archived her emails on her hard drive...which is an acceptable method based on the regulations you printed. However, her hard drive crashed...which is the downside of a local archive.

a reply to: howmuch4another

I'll share the same link I have with others, it was the first one I found in a google search.

www.usatoday.com...

This isn't secret information, most sources (besides Fox News) are reporting on this.

a reply to: TDawgRex

This is our government saying F/U in your face with no fear. This should not be a D or R issue for if it is we are all lost. I am certain that there are some good politicians in DC but the vast majority are crooks and even the good ones are afraid to rock the boat because they have secrets too.

Only course that would stop this is to throw them all out. Let them know who they represent.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: kruphix

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: kruphix

It seems like there is some mis-information going on. It isn't just that one hard drive crashed, it is how the IRS stores emails.

Then why is the official story that Lois Lerner's hard drive had been 'recycled' after it crashed, and that is why her emails are lost forever.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post that explains why.

I did read it.

The other thing I am hearing in this thread is that they should all be backed up. At one time they probably were, but a backup is not the same as an archive. A backup is a snapshot of the current state of the system to restore to. To save space, many backup systems overwrite older backups with the newer backups. So at any one point you can probably only restore back to a certain point, not the beginning of time. From what I have read, the IRS did not have an electronic archive system that archived everything.

The IRS is required by law to back every email up, by law.
I have already posted a link that shows that the IRS has a manual that indicates that all of their emails are in a Microsoft platform that stores the emails externally.
I work for a small company.... not the IRS. We back up everything to our server daily and everything is backed up on tape weekly.

Yes, they backup their data...and every six months they overwrite the backups with new backups.

Your company probably doesn't have to do that if it is a small company.


It still all boils down to this...Republicans have been over the available documents hundreds of times and they can't find crap that shows anything illegal was done. So this is their last desperate attempt at not looking like idiots...they will blame "missing emails"...and hold on to the notion that all the answers are in these missing emails even though they have thousands of other emails that show nothing.

a reply to: kruphix

Your source

It was seven hard drive crashes, the lack of a centralized archive, a practice of erasing and reusing backup tapes every six months, and an IRS policy of allowing employees to decide for themselves which e-mails constitute an official agency record.

Yet they can't actually validate that. Because of the next statement.

The IRS would not comment publicly on its document retention policies, but information provided to congressional investigators points to systemic problems with records management at the tax agency.

Oh yeah, they have systemic problems alright.

They can't/won't produce evidence to either clear or convict Lois Lerner.

a reply to: kruphix

Republicans have been over the available documents hundreds of times and they can't find crap that shows anything illegal was done. So this is their last desperate attempt at not looking like idiots...they will blame "missing emails"...and hold on to the notion that all the answers are in these missing emails even though they have thousands of other emails that show nothing.

And you see nothing odd that there are missing emails for Ms. Lerner.

It all boils down to this: You will go to any length to support the administration.
Some people (like WH Press Secretaries) have to be paid handsomely to tow the line to such lengths.

originally posted by: kruphix
a reply to: howmuch4another

I'll share the same link I have with others, it was the first one I found in a google search.

www.usatoday.com...

This isn't secret information, most sources (besides Fox News) are reporting on this.

Oh Ok...sure.

from your link:

said Nancy Flynn, founder of the ePolicy Institute, a Columbus, Ohio, training and consulting firm.

also from your link:

said Melanie Sloan, the director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a liberal-leaning watchdog group.

I didn't see anything that sources their OPINION either.

a reply to: beezzer

As of right now, Lois Lerner is cleared...we are always innocent until proven guilty.

The GOP witch hunt will continue, because they need to keep their supporters entertained with manufactured scandals or else they will not be angry enough to go out and vote.

They have to do this because they have nothing of substance for their supporters to be excited about...so all they have is to create fake outrage in them.


If Republicans and all their silly investigations couldn't find anything with the thousands of emails, thousands of documents, and thousands of hours that they have wasted on this...do you really think a few more emails has what they are looking for? The bigger question be...why do they have to LOOK for something...if this case has any merit to it, the evidence should come first and then investigation. In this case, the investigation came first and it's entire goal is to attempt to find some evidence for their crazy theories.

It's a witch hunt...it is the exact definition of a witch hunt.

a reply to: howmuch4another

I can only lead a horse to water...


It's up to you if you want to ignore information, I can't control that.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: kruphix

Republicans have been over the available documents hundreds of times and they can't find crap that shows anything illegal was done. So this is their last desperate attempt at not looking like idiots...they will blame "missing emails"...and hold on to the notion that all the answers are in these missing emails even though they have thousands of other emails that show nothing.

And you see nothing odd that there are missing emails for Ms. Lerner.

It all boils down to this: You will go to any length to support the administration.
Some people (like WH Press Secretaries) have to be paid handsomely to tow the line to such lengths.

No, I don't see anything odd about it at all. Information technology isn't perfect...and just because it is a government agency doesn't make it better. Have you seen what they pay government IT people? They most likely have the bottom of the barrel people maintaining their systems.

Plus, this isn't the first time it has happened. Under Bush, emails went missing as well. I don't think it is a conspiracy...I think it is humans being humans.

It all boils down to this: Some people can't see through fake manufactured scandals and they eat them up like a soap opera. Some people need this in order to maintain their hate for the other side. I prefer to focus on the issues and not the fake controversies used to entertain the masses.

a reply to: kruphix

Total and complete BS saying that incompetence is an excuse. I used to work for the Gov't and they can get anything they want that was passed through their servers. I know...I experienced it. I was the one under investigation.

And a Congressman and his staff (whom I didn't vote for) did his job and found all the relevant emails. (I did keep back-ups of everything by the way)

My career was saved and I was allowed to retire and the two yabooheads that tried to implicate me in other shenanigans were canned.

ALL THOSE EMAILS EXIST!

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: kruphix

Total and complete BS saying that incompetence is an excuse. I used to work for the Gov't and they can get anything they want that was passed through their servers. I know...I experienced it. I was the one under investigation.

And a Congressman and his staff (whom I didn't vote for) did his job and found all the relevant emails. (I did keep back-ups of everything by the way)

My career was saved and I was allowed to retire and the two yabooheads that tried to implicate me in other shenanigans were canned.

ALL THOSE EMAILS EXIST!

Did you work for the IRS?

If not, then your experience is about as valid as a McDonald's employee talking about his job.

a reply to: kruphix

No...I worked for the DoD, which is a hell of a lot bigger than the IRS. If a entity as big as the DoD can control it's servers and archive/back up everything, then so can the IRS.

You're using emotion in a rational argument. That equals...FAIL.

originally posted by: whywhynot
a reply to: TDawgRex

Only course that would stop this is to throw them all out. Let them know who they represent.

I would like to see, at least for one year, where they all have to run for re-election...every single one. The commercials alone would piss off the populace that we would see such a hodge podge of candidates it would be hilarious!

a reply to: kruphix

It all boils down to this: Some people can't see through fake manufactured scandals and they eat them up like a soap opera. Some people need this in order to maintain their hate for the other side. I prefer to focus on the issues and not the fake controversies used to entertain the masses.

Well let's see.

Lois Lerner: High ranking IRS management. Claims targeting was small and condensed to one office in Cincinnati.

IRS admits targeting Conservative groups.

U.S. Senators and Congressmen demand investigations of Conservative groups. One (Democrat) Congressman is directly involved in targeting one specific group. No basis, no evidence of illegal activity, no just cause.

IRS releases private information to FBI without just cause.

Nothing found "wrong" with targeted groups or individuals.

NGO groups known to be involved in Conservative targeting.

Lois Lerner: Pleads 5th more than once which means she is protected from admitting guilty criminal activity pertaining to the questions asked. WOW! (if there's no criminal activity, why plead the 5th?) WOW!

Lois Lerner: Held in Contempt of Congress.

IRS official says emails are there.

Then IRS says we can't get them.

Then IRS says hard drives crashed destroying emails for two years.

And this is all innocent?

Any questions?

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: kruphix

No...I worked for the DoD, which is a hell of a lot bigger than the IRS. If a entity as big as the DoD can control it's servers and archive/back up everything, then so can the IRS.

You're using emotion in a rational argument. That equals...FAIL.

It's not an emotion...it is logic. Seems like you are the one using irrational comparisons.

Question...is the DoD the IRS???

If the answer is no, then can you compare their two policies???

a reply to: kruphix


I think they have broken several laws with this whole boondoggle.

No objective lawyer who has been involved in “eDiscovery” — the discovery during litigation of emails and other electronic documents — will credit the Obama administration’s claim that, by accident, years of Lois Lerner’s emails were irretrievably lost. John explained why here.

Moreover, as Bryan Preston at PJ Media reports, a former IRS IT specialist is equally skeptical. The individual in question worked on the IRS’s contract with Computer Sciences Corporation to modernize the agency’s digital record-keeping system. He finds it difficult to believe that the IRS could have lost two years’ worth of Lois Lerner’s emails.


He notes first that U.S. law, specifically 44 U.S.C. Chapter 33, requires that agencies must notify the Archivist of any records that are destroyed and the reasons for destroying them. In addition, federal regulations establish strict recoverability and redundancy requirements. Disposal of records outside these standards requires permission in writing.


Lois Lerner’s emails — a former IRS IT specialist’s take

Tell one lie and it takes 1000 more to cover it up.

a reply to: kruphix

You know if tdawgrex had said that he worked IRS IT for 20 yrs I have no doubt your reply would have been "but it was not in the non-profit corp division" You may think that you are cute and perhaps you are working on your spin degree. However, the IRS is universally hated and universally suspect. I believe that a very large majority of the voter see right thru this and in Nov will vote accordingly. So spin on that for a while.