How will the world remember America?

originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: Kryties

honestly, your extreme anti west rhetoric tells me you care nothing for America or its citizens.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone inevitably came to the thread and attempted to call me an "America Hater".

Two points:

1. That doesn't work on people who aren't American. I know you may find that hard to believe, being blinded by patriotism as you seemingly are, but it's true.

2. Thankyou for proving my point entirely.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

except that I hope it's my government they are talking about, and not me, nor my country itself, because again:

It's the people that make the country.......not the government.

I almost fully agree except for the fact, which I have stated before, that the 'people' are the ones responsible for the actions of their government by voting them in. If the government is acting in a tyrannous manner then the people get rid of it - which has simply not happened.

originally posted by: simsumre

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: simsumre
a reply to: Kryties

Americans are not their Government. You'll find that most Americans don't agree with what their Government is doing on many issues.

So who votes them in then? The ruling class? If that isn't tyranny then I don't know what is, and if the American people have realised this then why haven't they done anything about it?

There are those that want this in America. Those that honestly believe that Capitalism is bad and that Socialism is the answer. Is that by chance? Who teaches at the universities? Progressive Liberals with a Socialist agenda. But when that doesn't work just open up the border, grant mass amnesty and create your own vote.

So only progressive liberals have the brains to be able to teach in a college? Also seeing how this country has been a capitalist economy and seeing the shape it is in how could anyone say how great the capitalist system is?

How America will be remembered is very simple. A nation that started out great but became it's own worst enemy.

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

With that in mind, do you see how ridiculous your statement above is?

Errr, it is my understanding that America is a democratic country, one person - one vote. Meaning that either the American people are letting this tyranny happen to them by continually voting in bad governments, or the ruling class have taken over your elections and rigged them, and the American people, with their "right to bear arms' against tyrannous governments, have not done a damn thing about it.

Thats how much of the rest of the world sees the situation, in a nutshell.

It's refreshing to see an outside perspective.

While we may have once been a Democracy, this is no longer true. We've become an oligarchy. There was a recent Supreme Court ruling that upheld, in a nutshell, that money = free speech. Meaning, Jim Bob Billionaire, has the constitutionally protected right to contribute as much as he wants to a political campaign. It's his freedom of speech.

See also the ruling of Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.

The lobbying movement has hijacked our election and legislative process, along with the sham known as the Electoral College. I'll never understand how anyone can justify a state giving the popular vote to one canidate, yet the EC gives the nod to the other.

For example, my state's economy is heavily reliant on the oil industry. Our Governor, Mary Fallin, has recently passed a new law requiring a tax on solar power. This law was not passed for the benenfit of our people, but rather for the financial interests of her corporate paymasters. If you want a look into some of the people truly running our country, look to the Koch brothers.

Source

Utility customers who want to install rooftop solar panels or small wind turbines could face extra charges on their bills after legislation passed the Oklahoma House of Representatives on Monday.

Senate Bill 1456 passed 83-5 after no debate in the House. It passed the Senate last month and now heads to Gov. Mary Fallin for her approval.

The bill was supported by the state’s major electric utilities, but drew opposition from solar advocates, environmentalists and others. It sets up a process at the Oklahoma Corporation Commission to establish a separate customer class and monthly surcharge for distributed generation such as rooftop solar or small wind turbines. Customers who already have those systems installed wouldn’t be affected by the bill.

US military is deployed in over 150 countries around the world, how is this not text-book Empiricism? Billions are spent on "foreign aid" while domestic issues are seemingly ignored. Amerika is home to more than 25% of all people imprisoned, while only comprising roughly 5% of the world's total population. Land of the free, you say? Rome was not defeated by the enemy at the gate, but the rampant corruption from within.

Alas, we too, shall fall the same way.

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: eriktheawful

except that I hope it's my government they are talking about, and not me, nor my country itself, because again:

It's the people that make the country.......not the government.

I almost fully agree except for the fact, which I have stated before, that the 'people' are the ones responsible for the actions of their government by voting them in. If the government is acting in a tyrannous manner then the people get rid of it - which has simply not happened.

We do vote. That doesn't stop the person that gets voted in from doing whatever it is that they want to do, and not do the things that they promised.

Should I hold someone responsible for their government's actions? Or should I hold the government responsible for it's actions?

If you vote someone in on good faith, and they do things you didn't vote for, should I hold you responsible for that? Or should I hold the government responsible for that?

Should I hold your responsible for not rebelling against your government? Should I hold you responsible and call you a coward because you're afraid to put your loved one's lives at risk if you take such actions?

Or should I instead understand that you may have too much to loose? Should I understand that civil wars and rebellions are bloody, costly things that can destroy a people's way of life?

I vote. I vote a lot when it's time to. But the system is flawed as Wrabbit stated: too many people vote straight party line......and our country certainly is NOT the only country who's people do this. And neither of the two main parties in my country "have it right". Both sides have a mixture of "what's wrong".

People here voted Obama because he promised them a transparent government, free medical care, and a change in our foreign policies.
What did they get instead? A very secretive government, Obamacare disaster, and someone that proved to be just as much of a warmonger as the last president (hang on, he's got to go drone more innocent people).

So, do you hold those people responsible? They cast their vote in good faith. Is it their fault that the man lied?

Or should you hold the man who lied responsible instead?

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Or should you hold the man who lied responsible instead?

Absolutely, except that nobody is - and therein lies the crux of the issue.

Honestly, the rest of the world would rejoice and throw parties and probably have cake if the American people actually stood up and did what they are very good at bellowing about, which is topple a tyrannous government.

How will the world remember America?

Not well is the simple answer LOL

It will be remembered as the leading empire of its time but without any of the benefits that previous empires brought (irrigation, industrialisation, education, hygiene improvements etc etc) just their destruction and exploitation.

History will roll back and reveal the extensive propaganda we have all been exposed to regarding the good ol US of A

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Or should you hold the man who lied responsible instead?

Absolutely, except that nobody is - and therein lies the crux of the issue.

Honestly, the rest of the world would rejoice and throw parties and probably have cake if the American people actually stood up and did what they are very good at bellowing about, which is topple a tyrannous government.

Sorry, but that is the MOST hypocritical thing you've said yet.

That is just about exactly what people did when Obama was voted into office back in 2008. You all even gave him the Nobel Peace prize.

The entire world (especially Europe) seemed very, very happy when Obama took office.

So who should we have voted for instead? McCain? Or should we have put Romney in office in 2012? I wrote in Gary Johnson myself.

All you just did is further show what I said: people vote in good faith. What their leaders do after being voted in may not be what they were promised.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Or should you hold the man who lied responsible instead?

Absolutely, except that nobody is - and therein lies the crux of the issue.

Honestly, the rest of the world would rejoice and throw parties and probably have cake if the American people actually stood up and did what they are very good at bellowing about, which is topple a tyrannous government.

Sorry, but that is the MOST hypocritical thing you've said yet.

That is just about exactly what people did when Obama was voted into office back in 2008. You all even gave him the Nobel Peace prize.

The entire world (especially Europe) seemed very, very happy when Obama took office.

So who should we have voted for instead? McCain? Or should we have put Romney in office in 2012? I wrote in Gary Johnson myself.

All you just did is further show what I said: people vote in good faith. What their leaders do after being voted in may not be what they were promised.

Britain was not so happy when Obama was elected. He appeared to have an anti-British rhetoric back in 2008.
However since then , he appears to have a far more pro-British stance. I think when he actually came to Britain, it was not how he expected it to be.

a reply to: eriktheawful

I wasn't talking about the voting of people into office, which has clearly been corrupted. I was talking about the American people bellowing on for decades about how they defeated the tyrannous British and have the 'right to bear arms' for the purpose of keeping that tyranny away and yet a clearly tyrannous regime (both parties) have taken over and yet none of the bellowing about fighting tyranny is actually being acted upon.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - Albert Einstein.

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: eriktheawful

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Or should you hold the man who lied responsible instead?

Absolutely, except that nobody is - and therein lies the crux of the issue.

Honestly, the rest of the world would rejoice and throw parties and probably have cake if the American people actually stood up and did what they are very good at bellowing about, which is topple a tyrannous government.

Sorry, but that is the MOST hypocritical thing you've said yet.

That is just about exactly what people did when Obama was voted into office back in 2008. You all even gave him the Nobel Peace prize.

The entire world (especially Europe) seemed very, very happy when Obama took office.

So who should we have voted for instead? McCain? Or should we have put Romney in office in 2012? I wrote in Gary Johnson myself.

All you just did is further show what I said: people vote in good faith. What their leaders do after being voted in may not be what they were promised.

Britain was not so happy when Obama was elected. He appeared to have an anti-British rhetoric back in 2008.
However since then , he appears to have a far more pro-British stance. I think when he actually came to Britain, it was not how he expected it to be.

Hehhehe, I think Steven Moffet of Doctor Who fame was. Two part episode of Doctor Who (with the 10th Doctor), where president Obama was about to hold a news conference in which he was going to announce how to solve all the worlds economic woes......then The Master took over everyone's bodies.

So I know Obama had at least one fan over there.

a reply to: Kryties
You wouldn't like it very much ...unless you have issues. Listen Germanicus,it's like this in the 50s there wasn't much media everywhere and it wasn't as controlled. All the same things WERE happening but we didn't know about it. Then the bankers and lawyers just started getting more and more greedy. They wanted more and more control as well so in the late 50s they adopted a soviet teaching system instead of teaching the individual.The 60s were the cold war and the Russians wanted to subvert the US by creating a rebellious sub culture. THAT culture is what is predominantly teaching in higher academia. Incredibly intelligent but not so smart.I watched the Hippies and saw they only rejected ideas that were counter to theirs they attacked people who were already victims as a result of the draft. Critical thinking 101: these people are idiots,I don't want to be like them.
One of the ways to take control of your populaces hearts and minds has been war,that way you can kill more of them legally,now they want women for that madness.
My youth was during the cold war so my rebellious language was metal. They weren't sure what to do with that.
Now with the internet PAX-COINTEL is rolling. We now know a LITTLE BIT(it is worse than many know)of the awful things they have done in our name. I can only wonder how many sociopaths are doing this?
But I am not the picture you have in your head.I try to tell you but your language is usually derision. Why do people think we are as organized as Rome?America is the embodiment of CHAOS.We are masters of it.
Those that believe our absence would make the world better,must be products of some kind of "caste" culture that seeks to toe some line.
We don't and that is what we will be remembered for.

a reply to: alldaylong
His father was anti colonialist,he is just a Hippie from Chicago.

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: eriktheawful

I wasn't talking about the voting of people into office, which has clearly been corrupted. I was talking about the American people bellowing on for decades about how they defeated the tyrannous British and have the 'right to bear arms' for the purpose of keeping that tyranny away and yet a clearly tyrannous regime (both parties) have taken over and yet none of the bellowing about fighting tyranny is actually being acted upon.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - Albert Einstein.

Do you live here? Yes or no?

For all our belly aching about things, way of life here is not so bad that we are willing to take up arms and forcefully try to remove a government that is backed by a 21st century, almost billion dollar a year budgeted military. Things would have to get MUCH worse here for that to happen.

As it is, quality of life for most here is much better than for many people across the world.

We don't "bellow on" about the revolutionary war. It's simply part of our history and is part of our beginnings. Many of us are proud of it.

Do you not have a part of your history that you are proud of from you country? Everyone that I have met from other countries do have at least some part of their history that they are proud of and celebrate.

Is it a crime to do so?

What will America be remember for? Showing the world that you do not have to live as subjects. That if you are willing to gamble and get some help along the way, you too can throw off oppression. And America was there to do that for some other countries when they asked for that help. But that was the past, now we knell before our own internal oppressors from the Federal, to State, to Local governments and on lower scales such as drug dealers and common street thugs in our cities.

America's heyday and wealth was the 1950's-1960's. The post war reconstruction of Europe relied heavily on America's exporting of goods, materials and military protection under NATO agreements. Hence Western Europe was able to spend a portion of their accumulated wealth to rebuild with modern infrastructure. A side note--after the fall of the Soviet Union and before the final formation of the EU, only Germany actively sought to bring the former soviet bloc countries up to modern standards so that is why Germany has the wealth and power in the EU that is has today. Same exact trick as the US pulled post WWII. So if the EU ever breaks up, guess which country will best weather that storm?

Looking at the politics of the US you have Progressivism masquerading as Liberalism and Fascism masquerading as Conservatism. One is a rule over people by lords and designees akin to Feudalism (see the IRS and Income Tax) and the other is a rule over people by a corporate/military/government mix (the Military Industrial Complex).

Many today cite Obamacare as the first program violating the limits of the Federal Government against We the People. Not even close to the first. The first one actually goes back to before the Constitution and happened under the Articles of Confederation, Shay's Rebellion The "defeat" of the Federal government led to sweeping new powers under the Constitution including taxes and the Whiskey Rebellion was fought for as much of a direct tax on income as anything else since many traded whiskey as a form of currency at that time.

What will it take to throw off those shackles of oppression once again? A mass awakening. A realization that many of the modern trappings of society are just that...trappings. That many of the welfare programs are designed to not be bootstraps but handcuffs to the participants. That our fiat currencies do the same to wealthier with the cycle of debt and interest. That 30 year mortgage on a house is just paying rent to a different landlord the bank that did not pull a single cent of their assets to buy that house for you. Yet you will pay that closing price twice due to the interest over the 30 years. And when it is paid off, you still pay property taxes on it so it is never free and clear. So a house (with a mortgage) doesn't build wealth for you but it can for your children, grandchildren or whomever you pass the house to eventually. Provided they needed the house and the lack of mortgage on it (if they can pay the inheritance tax at the time) can eliminate 1/5 to 1/3 of their living expenses.

We can argue other things such as outsourcing of manufacturing, insourcing of cheaper foreign labor (illegal immigration) or other destructive policies (direct election of Senators therefore eliminating the check and balance that States had on the Federal or even Primary Elections). But in the end, what will make or break America is if the people will stand and fight or knuckle under oppression when the time comes. And that fight could be just making your voice heard whether you are right or wrong. The standoff at the Cliven Bundy ranch says that a few will still stand with diligence when protecting another. And again the who was right doesn't matter in that case. Just that a few stood and said "NO" until the BLM blinked and backed down. It is when no one will stand is when America is dead.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Do you live here? Yes or no?

This thread asks what the world (of which I am a part of last time I checked) thinks of America.

I simply tell it like I see it, and judging by the amount of stars on my first post it seems many people agree with me.

You can argue until the cows come home about how America is great and mighty and it's people are happy but it comes at the ignorance to the damage it has caused the rest of the world to do so.

As it is, quality of life for most here is much better than for many people across the world.

American propaganda at it's finest. I enjoy an equal standard of living to the US as does much of the industrialised world.

We don't "bellow on" about the revolutionary war.

You're kidding me right? Seriously?

Do you not have a part of your history that you are proud of from you country? Everyone that I have met from other countries do have at least some part of their history that they are proud of and celebrate.

Is it a crime to do so?

Yes, of course, except the big difference between us and America doing that is that Americans like to shove their achievements and history in the rest of the worlds faces while screaming about how 'exceptional' they are. Americans love to talk about the revolutionary war and how they defeated the tyrannous British and yet, several hundred years down the track have become the very thing they fought against.

a reply to: Kryties

Please quote in any of my posts in this thread where I argued that "America is great and powerful".

Just once.

I said: "I love my country and I really don't care what others think of it."

That includes you.

On the other hand, I also said that it's the people that make up a country, and that I have met people, in person, all over the world, and love everyone of them and their cultures.

That to me: a country is made up by it's people. Their rich cultures, stories and how they live.

I personally won't judge them based on how their government acts. That's simply not fair.

Can you say the same?

Apparently not. Instead, you'll judge me and my country by how my government acts, and by things you read, such as forum posts.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: Kryties

Please quote in any of my posts in this thread where I argued that "America is great and powerful".

I said "Americans". Plural. Unless you are trying to claim that you are the embodiment of all 300 million Americans?

originally posted by: eriktheawful

Instead, you'll judge me and my country by how my government acts, and by things you read, such as forum posts.

Of course I will, given that one of the largest events in the history of your country was defeating tyranny and yet the American people have allowed it to happen again by actively and knowingly voting tyranny into their own government.

If Americans (plural) are going to drone on about how they are so exceptional because they once defeated a tyranny then I would expect them to do the same thing again, yet clearly that is not the case. So, I shall judge.