Citizens against war. An honest question

Ok so like all great threads....or bad ones...this came from watching a movie and got me thinking

so watching Forrest Gump...fantastic film still

anywho to the meat of the conversation

Gump goes to Vietnam and as we all know Vietnam was a poorly received war that was not popular at all

So I am sure we've all seen it but here comes the questions

1. Do you think citizens who have zero military experience deserves a voice and deserves to speak out when they themselves either weren't drafted or made no effort to be a soldier?

2. Do you think it's fair to get mad at soldiers for fighting? Are soldiers culpable or are they a tool of the military machine and are innocent?

Just some thoughts

please look and notice nowhere did I state my opinions yet so let's not jump all over me and assume my position

a reply to: KyoZero

#1. Yes. I have zero experience. Never served. Not for lack of trying, but a medical issue on my foot just about got me thrown, rather than shown out the doors at MEPS. So..life's little twists. Anyway, I think people who have served and especially in combat have a more heavily weighted or more relevant opinion by nature. That doesn't meant it'll always be better, but should be listened to differently for the context of experience. It really matters on this, IMO.

#2 Yes/No. There have been hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops rotate through the two main combat theaters over the last decade and a half or so. They've collectively carried more than enough firepower to literally depopulate both of those nations, to the last person. Obviously, no such thing happened. Obvious, as well, atrocities happened.

I blame the soldiers who crossed lines and became something...less than what we expect from civilized human behavior. Even in war. I have no place for much forgiveness there, either. Having said that, the vast majority never came to, let alone crossed that line....and No, I don't blame them for the politicians who make these things.

originally posted by: KyoZero

1. Do you think citizens who have zero military experience deserves a voice and deserves to speak out when they themselves either weren't drafted or made no effort to be a soldier?

I lack the military experience by choice. My viewpoint is predicated from an early belief that war is wrong, and soldiers are instruments of unneccessary death.

If you limit viewpoints, you increase like mindedness. If you think more like mindedness is a good thing.....

2. Do you think it's fair to get mad at soldiers for fighting? Are soldiers culpable or are they a tool of the military machine and are innocent?

Yes, but "get mad" needs to be tempered with compassion. There is nothing wrong with believing that your country is doing good work And it is easy to trick the young and naive.

While I hold each person to account for their own actions, I have to remember that a manipulated and exploited individual should be given a fair shot at thinking outside the manipulating and exploitation.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Thank you for eloquently putting into words what was in my head.
I chose the same path and destroyed my selective service card right after it came in the mail. I refuse to fight for the profits of others.

My voice holds just as much weight as anyone else's whether they are a soldier, a train engineer, an astronaut, or a jobless homeless person. We are all red on the inside.

a reply to: KyoZero

# 1 Yes, having a voice in these issues is what makes a society functionally free.

# 2 I believe most soldiers are just tools of the MIC. Granted many sign up because of patriotic reasons but once they realize what really going on (banker / geopolitical inspired wars) come to their senses.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I blame the soldiers who crossed lines and became something...less than what we expect from civilized human behavior. Even in war.

Interesting concept but I disagree. There is no such thing as civilized war, simply power, destruction, intimidation, control and murder. I enlisted toward the end of the Viet Nam war. My Platoon Sargent taught us one simple thing, survive at all costs. As he was one of a handful in his battalion who survived the Tet offensive we listened to what he had to say.

most soldiers whether they're American, Taliban or any other force are simply naive young boys, they get so much patriotism and nationalism shoved down their throats and told such rose tinted lies that they can't see that they aren't doing they're cause any favors, just the opposite in fact.

I tend to feel sorry for soldiers more than anything, to be used like your less than an animal is a pitiable thing.

a reply to: KyoZero

I think fighting for your country against a foreign invader is the most honorable thing one can do...It is just that there is been a while since Americans really fought for the honor and defense of their own soil from the real enemies.Your fights have all been taking place in other countries solely for profit purposes,and it is obvious that a soldier fighting in a remote country killing innocent women and children for greedy corporations feels all crappy and taken advantage of afterwards.

a reply to: KyoZero

1. Do you think citizens who have zero military experience deserves a voice and deserves to speak out when they themselves either weren't drafted or made no effort to be a soldier? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Absolutely, although experience of war will (if you're normal) make you abhor the very idea, it is a necessary evil.
But oil shouldn't be the issue, people's freedom should IMHO.

2. Do you think it's fair to get mad at soldiers for fighting? Are soldiers culpable or are they a tool of the military machine and are innocent? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again absolutely, in certain circumstances.

As an ex soldier I take full responsibility for every action I took, if that upset a few people I couldn't care less, they were necessary actions to save lives. Of course I regret relieving a family of a father/ husband/ brother etc. and I think about it on many an occasion, I've run the scenarios in my head more times than I care to remember, and the end result was the ONLY option.

Yes soldiers are culpable, we as humans always have a choice to say no, and face the consequences. To say "I was acting on orders" is to say "I knew I was wrong but I did it anyway".

Just IMHO

Cody

a reply to: Bassago

I didn't say there was such a thing as civilized war. I said civilized behavior. If that difference isn't night/day clear to folks, then god help us if that's ever a majority of what actually staffs our military. My blood family wearing the Uniform now and those who have in the past certainly know that distinction and are who I learned it from. It's just basic morality, and war need not erase that from a person's soul...tho for some, it always does. (My rationale for my #2 answer.)

originally posted by: the owlbear
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
I refuse to fight for the profits of others.

I highlighted your one line that really distills what war should be, if it should be anything at all.

The military should be used as a deterrent first, a destructive force last. If someone attacks the United States, then by all means we should utilize our military strength to soundly defeat that aggressor and leave them with the inability to perform an encore.

But that hasn't been the case for as long as anyone can remember. Wars over what, exactly? The vague threat of communism? The vague threat of terrorism? A galvanizing false flag to sway public opinion to allow the government to use the military as a neighborhood bully to get what they want? Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11?

I for one place and blame or criticism on the CIC and military industrial complex. As for the soldiers, they deserve all the respect, IMO, unless they commit crimes while serving.

a reply to: KyoZero

1.I believe that irregardless if you have been a soldier or not,war still effects your country therefore you have a say in it.I was a preteen during Vietnam and I know it effected me and my classmates very much.

2.I believe that there is SOME culpability on the part of soldiers,such as if a commanding officer gives you a command to do something that you know is against the laws of man to do.But the brunt of the responsibility MUST be borne by those in power for putting our people in that position to begin with.

I think for everything there is a season,including a time of war when our safety and security is being honestly threatened.But these nonsense wars over so called spreading Democracy (which is a lie),and protecting people in other countries is stupid. Its all just a cover for us to grab more resources and control other countries. We have left nothing but devastation in our wake for the whole world to see. Thats why when Bush was at a meeting and trying to tell Putin that he needed to have our democracy like we had put in Iraq,Putin immediately came back with "we don't want democracy like you have in Iraq" and started laughing along with the audience.

I'm so sorry but with our strength,power,and resources,we could be excellent trading partners for the rest of the world without getting in their affairs and making enemys with the rest of the world.It is a misuse of power that it caused by the absolute corruption of our governmental powers. We can no longer travel anywhere in the world safely due to our governments meddling in others affairs.That meddling comes at a high price, the price of the blood of our soldiers. If they survive and make it back home,then they are dumped like garbage and not given the due respect they deserve with services there to help them acclimate back into society properly. The current VA scandal is nothing new,the vets have known it was this way for a long time now. Every year congress cuts more benefits for the vets while sitting on their rears reaping the profits from our war machine.

If you want to know what a countries priorities are,then look at what they spend the most money on.
For us its the war machine and prisons.tells you everything you need to know about TPTB.

a reply to: ScientiaFortisDefendit

But that hasn't been the case for as long as anyone can remember. Wars over what, exactly? The vague threat of communism? The vague threat of terrorism? A galvanizing false flag to sway public opinion to allow the government to use the military as a neighborhood bully to get what they want? Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Genocide WW2
Genocide Bosnia 1995 LINK

Just saying

Cody

War has been going on, since the beginning of time; and before it. Our flesh wars against our spirit, while Earth is the battleground for the afterlife. Some will go on to live "happily ever after"; while most will suffer, for the pain and destruction they caused on Earth. God doesn't send people to hell. They choose a lifestyle on Earth that will lead them there. God judges our lives and lifestyles, according to His word. Did we love Him? Did we love our neighbor??? Our lifestyle dictates those things. That's why the dictators are constantly busy, twisting the script.

Gotta go! MSM is calling.

a reply to: KyoZero

The draft is the worst form of human trafficking. Slave soldiers place survival at the top and everything else is justifiable. From a moral standpoint, self preservation is superior. From the war-makers perspective, this is the perfect setup.

Last time I checked, "mercenary" was not considered to be an honorable profession. From recent events, it's clear that the only thing worse than a mercenary is a mercenary that gains a conscience before the "job" is done.

IMO, if soldiers were the only ones allowed to discuss war, there would be no war. It's the elites, Bankers and profit machines that should be banned from the dialog.

I would (and am) considering emigrating from the US on principle. It's not clear to me where I would go though. If I was unattached, I'd be writing this from Canada, Iceland or Netherlands, possibly Costa Rica or Chile

a reply to: KyoZero

1. Do you think citizens who have zero military experience deserves a voice and deserves to speak out when they themselves either weren't drafted or made no effort to be a soldier?

Following that route is what caused the economic disasters of the last 100 years. And the wars of the last 100 years.

2. Do you think it's fair to get mad at soldiers for fighting? Are soldiers culpable or are they a tool of the military machine and are innocent?

You chose to go to another country and oppress it's people. For whatever reason YOU decided to go, it does not absolve you from the actions you take while there. In the name of your country, your president or it's people, nobody has the right to oppress others.

I don't hate soldiers, I just think in today's 21st century warfare they are misguided and fooled into thinking that what they do is somehow righteous or brave. And in trying to protect themselves and fellow soldiers, they most certainly are both those things.

I just don't agree with the wars we've had, their reasons behind them or the way they were carried out. North American is less safe than it was 20 years ago in part because of the imperialistic nature of the West and Europe.

`Tenth

a reply to: cody599

I was referring to post-WW2, more or less. Before then, there was no military-Industrial complex to feed.

a reply to: KyoZero

I'm not going to make any assumptions about your position - just the way you asked :-)

But these are really very good questions I think -

1. Do you think citizens who have zero military experience deserves a voice and deserves to speak out when they themselves either weren't drafted or made no effort to be a soldier?
Absolutely - every citizen of this nation has not just the right, but I think a duty - to speak up for what they believe to be right or wrong

These actions are being done in our name - and with our taxes if you want to really get into it. It's not as if our government or military is a separate entity that should be able to do whatever it wants unquestioned. It is us - however out of control and out of our hands it appears to be in the end - it is still us

If they're going to invade, imprison, confiscate, steal, destroy, torture or kill in my name - you better believe I'm going to say something. Military experience be damned - how about experience being human?

2. Do you think it's fair to get mad at soldiers for fighting? Are soldiers culpable or are they a tool of the military machine and are innocent?

Another interesting question. Yes and no

I say - each person has to act according to their own conscience - and pay the price for not living up to that if and when they cross a line

I'm a pacifist that recognizes we live in a world of war-making - there are no easy answers

But if we only use Vietnam as an example - it's hard to feel proud of a country that used and discarded (and then ultimately forgot) drafted young men the same way they would toilette paper - to destroy a tiny country and it's people - half a world away

And for what? The domino theory?

That's just the more distant, and so more easily digested example

Do I blame those soldiers? No

Do I blame individuals or groups that crossed a line - even as they crossed it with a military blessing? Yes - I do - absolutely

I thought about this a second more and realized - we should all wonder about that line - where it is - does it move? As a pacifist - I see the line starts at my toes. Killing is wrong - war is wrong

Like I said - no easy answers

a reply to: ScientiaFortisDefendit

I've seen kids blown apart for extremism

Wrenched parents to safety,

Am I culpable for my actions ? Yes. Am I proud ? No.

Does the world have the right to judge my actions ? Yes

Cody

originally posted by: tothetenthpower



I don't hate soldiers, I just think in today's 21st century warfare they are misguided and fooled into thinking that what they do is somehow righteous or brave. And in trying to protect themselves and fellow soldiers, they most certainly are both those things.

I could not have worded that better. Thank you.

Everyone should have a voice .. wars are ugly dirty things with no winners while the corrupt bastards of the world profit from the pain .. misery.. death and blood of others ..

Spare me the damn politics and flag waving .. its long past time people dumped imaginary lines on the map along with damn governments and leaders as the only thing they do is start damn wars to send others off to fight and die so they can all make their damn bloodmoney ..

Meh.. time to grab cuppa tea and curb my temper before this gets ugly .. besides all the brainwashed with their view that wars are grand glorious ways to solve problems wont pull their heads out of their arses long enough to understand the hell that war is and that no one wins a damn war ...