Greatest Conjunction aka Bethlehem Star

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

[...] For the dates before Elijah I have used the biblical analogies [...]

That should be 'biblical genealogies'

According to Neil F. Michelsen's Tables of Planetary Phenomena (p. 91) the dates for the 6BC Pisces Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions are slightly different than the dates I've used in this thread:

The Birth of Jesus:
6BC | May27 | 11:26 | 20Pi56
6BC | Sep29 | 09:18 | 17Pi34
6BC | Dec03 | 16:43 | 15Pi34
-- 973 years and 5 triple conjunctions later:
967AD | Jun30 | 13:06 | 17Ar34
967AD | Oct11 | 10:11 | 14Ar42
968AD | Jan09 | 06:10 | 12Ar09
-- 973 years and 5 triple conjunctions later:
1940AD | Aug08 | 01:24 | 14Ta27
1940AD | Oct20 | 04:38 | 12Ta28
1941AD | Feb15 | 06:37 | 09Ta07
-- 973 years and 5 triple conjunctions later:
2913AD | Aug?? | ??:?? | 11Ge??
2913AD | Nov?? | ??:?? | 09Ge??
2914AD | Mar?? | ??:?? | 06Ge??
-- The New Jerusalem and the return of God?

I'd also like the opportunity to revisit a notion made by Zardust about these conjunctions being mentioned in the Bible:

Amos 5:26 You shall take up Sikkuth your king, and Kiyyun your star-god [ESV]

Sakkuth (Sikkuth) is Jupiter and Kevan (Kiyyun) is Saturn. This shows that these events were observed or even worshipped in the time of Amos, and judging by the text and St. Stephen, also in the time of Moses.

Roughly every 20 years (slightly less, and almost the same as the Sun-Moon cycle) there is a conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn, making it a regular event in the sky. But sometimes, the Earth passes between the Sun and the outer planets which makes for a much rarer event, a triplet of Saturn-Jupiter conjunctions over a period of 7 months where the planets remain mostly within the same area in the sky relative to the backdrop of stars. The middle or second conjunction in the triplets happens as the planets are in retrograde and seem to make a loop or an S-turn relative to the backdrop, animating the sky lighting it up like a christmas tree. Well, at least to nerds like me it does.

Judging by the data I have available, a cycle with five such consecutive triple events happen until the cycle starts over every 973 years, and the next cycle starts off. Every new cycle progresses a distance of roughly 27° forward along the zodiac.

Another thing. If you take a map over the roads in Judea around the time our good lord was born, and plot the route the "wise men" of the Gospel most likely must have travelled given the descriptions in the stories, these "wise men" travelled from the East to Jerusalem, and in order to get to Bethlehem and later to leave in the oposite direction which they came from, they would have to walk in an S-shape, as if to mimic the retrograde motion of the planets above. A case of "as above so below":


Source: www.bible-history.com...

Compare to:


Though these three "greatest" conjunctions occur over a span of eight months, they all happen in Pisces, and that's the clue to somewhere around the time of Passover, March-April, and that's not all, for there is more to the story than wise men and planetary phenomena:

There is 1. the cencus, 2. the killing of the firstborns and 3. the exile to Egypt, all three of which are references to Torah parashas and central Torah events.

1. Parashat Pekudei (Ex 38:21 - 40:38) is the last of the Exodus parashas and is traditionally read in early March. It's about the cencus Moses held in the desert. Pekudei means lit. 'the cencus' or 'reckoning' and it the story 603,550 men were accounted for.
=> Judging from this I assume a possible dating for the birth of Jesus in early March, 6BC.

2a. Parashat Shemot (Ex 1:1 - 6:1) is the first of the Exodus parashas and is read around Christmas. It's about the birth of Moses and the killing of the Hebrew firstborns.
2b. Parashat Bo (Ex 10:1 - 13:16) is the third of the Exodus parashas and is read around Western New Year. It includes the last three of the ten plagues in Egypt, ending with the killing of the Egyptian firstborns.
=> Eventhough these two parashas are read mid-winter, the connection with the birth of Moses which is traditionally given as 7 Adar (source), and secondly, Passover fixed at 14 Nisan, I believe the timestamp here is early spring, March-April, 6BC, or around Passover, but in the story of Moses' birth, his mother hid him for three months, which would be around mid-summer.

3a. Parashat Lech Lechah (Gen 12:1 - 17:27) is about Abraham and includes his trip to Egypt. It is read medio October.
3b. Parashat Va'yeishev (Gen 37:1 - 40:23) and the following parashat Miketz (Gen 41:1 - 44:17) are abut Joseph and later the rest of his family in Egypt. They are read during the latter half of November.
=> In both stories they flee from famine, and since famines happen during the summer, I assume a dating for the exile at somewhere between summer and when these parashas are read, October-November, we can assume the journey took about three months, counting from three months after Passover to about a half year after Jesus was born.

In short:
1. Birth of Jesus between 1 Adar and Passover 6BC.
2. Herod's order issued around Passover 6BC
3. Fleeing to Egypt around three months later, mid-summer 6BC.

Source for parasha dates: www.yashanet.com...


Below is an updated chart showing these Greatest Conjunctions as they progress through the zodiac over the millennia. I have put included estimated years for the given conjunction before 6BC and likewise the estimate year for the upcoming one in the 30th century AD:

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Also, looking at the traditional names in Hebrew for the two planets and the personalities given to them, the night sky told quite a story (Source#1 and Source#2):

Jupiter was called Tzedeq or "Justice" and being the clearest planet in the night sky, it's presence didn't go unnoticed. You find the name within another name from Genesis, Melchizedek (Malki-tsedeq) the king of Salem (Jerusalem) Abraham met, who was a priest for the Most High. From Melek "King" and Tzedeq "Justice/Jupiter". In the Book of Hebrews Jesus is said to be the High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek, with a clear reference to Psalm 110.
=> Therefore I assume that planet Jupiter is connected to Jesus as the King or the Messiah.

Saturn was called Shabo or Shabtai (as in Shabbath) meaning "Seventh", "Restful" or simply "Planet of the Shabbath" corresponding with the Roman system of naming the days of the week after the planets, and like modern Saturday it's Latin name ("Dies Saturni"?) means "Saturn's Day".
=> John the Baptist was reknown for his humble attitude and to me he seems like a highly relaxed character and if I was to assign a day to him, it would have to be the Shabbath. And the planet of the Shabbath is Saturn.

In Astrology, Jupiter has domicile rulership of Pisces diurnally (during the day) and Sagittarius nocturnally (during the night), while Saturn rules Aquarius diurnally and Capricorn nocturnally. Saturn is connected with genius and meditation, listening and reflection of "astral light". Jupiter is nobility and kingship. Jupiter's cycle resembles the hexagram (six points) or Star of David while Saturn draws a heptagram (seven points).

thanks for the invite to the thread.

to verify your theory, check the date of the birth of cleopatra's son, esu (esa/isa and also known as caesarian). provided, of course, that the date for that event isn't also messed up.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It couldn't have been a comet as that wouldn't allow the wise men to do a triangulation to identify the location and time of birth. The astrology charts are said to have shown an astrological grand cross as viewed from Bethlehem on Feb 18th 5 BC, apparently at 9:14 am!

Link

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Famines aren't just a summer thing. A famine can stretch for years. Like the 7 years prophesied by Joseph.

Just a thought for your timing.

a reply to: undo

I'm aware that some people believe Caesarion was Jesus, I don't buy that, since he died in 30 BC, and that's just way too early, and he only reached an age of 17. Doesn't fit the deal. Unless you mean someone else. I never understood exactly what makes people think this guy could be Jesus.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

I'm aware that some people believe Caesarion was Jesus, I don't buy that, since he died in 30 BC, and that's just way too early, and he only reached an age of 17. Doesn't fit the deal. Unless you mean someone else. I never understood exactly what makes people think this guy could be Jesus.

he didn't die at 17. well, you have to read my thread on the subject:

Cleopatra didn't Commit Suicide:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It couldn't have been a comet as that wouldn't allow the wise men to do a triangulation to identify the location and time of birth. The astrology charts are said to have shown an astrological grand cross as viewed from Bethlehem on Feb 18th 5 BC, apparently at 9:14 am!

Link

According to the page the date for the event is March 2nd 5 BC at 9:14 am (link to chart). I find it particularly interesting that this line-up resembles the "Molten Sea" in the Temple of Solomon (2 Chronicles 4). The star is the hexagonal sea itself, while the square aspects that are superimposed resembles the oxen underneath. I made a thread on the "molten sea" yesterday: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The chart provided on the page you linked to is heliocentric, so it would only be apparent to people who would know the Sun was in the centre of the solar system, and be able to plot these stars relative to a centred Sol. Which brings up another important thing, the seers would have to have had quite big telescopes in order to see the outermost planets in the chart. Remember that only five planets are visible to the naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Though, seeing it now 2000 years after the fact is quite amazing. And it would fit all the parashas involved. Well, it would fit most every aspect given in the text, which is highly intriguing.

Great! Keep it coming!!!

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Famines aren't just a summer thing. A famine can stretch for years. Like the 7 years prophesied by Joseph.

Just a thought for your timing.

True, but you would realise the upcoming famine in summer, and unless you had stocked enough reserves, you would have to fix your supplies in time for harvest, whether the drought would last one or seven years.

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

I'm aware that some people believe Caesarion was Jesus, I don't buy that, since he died in 30 BC, and that's just way too early, and he only reached an age of 17. Doesn't fit the deal. Unless you mean someone else. I never understood exactly what makes people think this guy could be Jesus.

he didn't die at 17. well, you have to read my thread on the subject:

Cleopatra didn't Commit Suicide:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Like the video in your thread say, Caesarion was killed at an age of 17 years. It also pose a theory that not only did Cleopatra die, she was murdered by Octavian, and her death was disguised as a suicide. A suicide described by both Pluthark and Cassius. In either case the dead bodies of both Cleopatra and her son Caesarion are accounted for and their deaths occurred in 30 BC but a few months apart. Had Cleopatra managed to live until the time when Jesus is supposed to have been born, she would have been a grand old lady, aged about 70, and Caesarion, had he lived, would be a fully grown man already in his mid 40s during the rule of Herod the Great.

Sorry, I don't buy that story. However, there are great reasons to believe that the ones who wrote the canonised Gospels, had this story in mind when tailoring the contexts of Jesus and Mary. But these events are miles apart I'm afraid.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

no, i don't think they are accounted for, and the reason i don't is because they showed up in israel. as the thread indicates, octavian was caught on more than one occasion lying about events surrounding cleo, not to mention the fact at least 2 of the mainstream accounts regarding caesarian's death didn't match. so i think she escaped to israel with caesarian.

a reply to: undo

Still, she would be 70 years old when Jesus supposedly was born, and would be more than a 100 standing by the foot of Jesus' cross. Jesus would have been nearly 80 years when he was crucified-- if he was Caesarion. Now, what 80-yearold goes stealing and joyriding donkeys during Passover in Jerusalem? I'm not saying it can't be done, but seriously, a geriatric crucifixion scenario just doesn't fit. Could've been a great sequel to Life of Brian though

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

Still, she would be 70 years old when Jesus supposedly was born, and would be more than a 100 standing by the foot of Jesus' cross. Jesus would have been nearly 80 years when he was crucified-- if he was Caesarion. Now, what 80-yearold goes stealing and joyriding donkeys during Passover in Jerusalem? I'm not saying it can't be done, but seriously, a geriatric crucifixion scenario just doesn't fit. Could've been a great sequel to Life of Brian though

depends on if the calendar is correct, and i don't think it is.

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: undo

Still, she would be 70 years old when Jesus supposedly was born, and would be more than a 100 standing by the foot of Jesus' cross. Jesus would have been nearly 80 years when he was crucified-- if he was Caesarion. Now, what 80-yearold goes stealing and joyriding donkeys during Passover in Jerusalem? I'm not saying it can't be done, but seriously, a geriatric crucifixion scenario just doesn't fit. Could've been a great sequel to Life of Brian though

depends on if the calendar is correct, and i don't think it is.

Calendar is a bit off, we can't avoid it, and the area in time we are focusing on is the core of this "nowhen" in space and time, but Caesarion and Jesus are two separate characters, I believe they would agree for you could I've massed them up. When astronomical observations start showing great holes in our calendars, some do so more than centuries. Lunar cycles suddenly show up too early, and Jupiter is out of line, and when Saturn comes by, it's 100 years too early. That's why I fit my observations to known reoccurring, steady astronomical observations that can be proved mathematically. Like the progressing Aether-Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions which happen at a steady pace of 973 years. Also the morningstar cycle doesn't lie, neither does the inferior solar conjunctions of Mercury. Kings can lie, but angels simply can't.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It couldn't have been a comet as that wouldn't allow the wise men to do a triangulation to identify the location and time of birth. The astrology charts are said to have shown an astrological grand cross as viewed from Bethlehem on Feb 18th 5 BC, apparently at 9:14 am!

Link

Just think about how long time it takes a pack of very old and very wise men to walk from Baghdad to Jerusalem. Two stars seemingly stationary in Pisces and the dawn of the Age of Pisces, and the promised Messiah, Jesus and John. Saturn and Jupiter. This is the story told in the Name of God.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

They would need a 6-8" telescope to view pluto but the far greater problem is trying to identify a very slow moving planet against a background with millions of stars. Practically a impossibility without time lapse photography. But a 4500 year old siberian cylinder Seal does seem to depict nine planets with either two moons of importance (or two outer planets with highly elliptical orbits). link.

We have found a 1000 years old lens of similar quality to todays optics ( visby lens) so advanced machinery isn't really needed to make telescopes (some amateurs hand grind/polish their lens with surprising results). So if telescopes were used by the wise men they just may have not have wanted to share their tools with the world. But if they didn't have telescopes or didn't derive the knowledge through inner inspiration, the other possibility is that just deduced the location of the outer planets from imperfections in the orbits of the inner planets (this is how we knew that Pluto existed before it was found).

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

well let's go back to the hyksos expulsion event - 1470-1500 BC, timeframe. if that were the actual biblical exodus (and it sure looks like it is), how would that modify the traditional dates given for Jesus, using old testament chronology? that's like a 170-200 year discrepancy, give or take 30 years. so instead of being 80 years old at his crucifixion, it'd still be like 90 years BEFORE he was actually born. i'm thinking this is because of the manetho vs berossus "we have the most antiquity" timeline problem.

if we could fix the timeline, yeah, i think we got a match on cleo's son esu = jesus. if we adjust for the hyksos timeframe (putting the exodus at 170-200 years earlier than originally stated), we need to find the other timeline anomalie. adjusting for your calendar theory, what happened astronomically, 170-200 years earlier ? i mean, something else is wrong with the timeline, obviously, but using that 200 year window, mayhaps something is there.

p.s. try checking everything backwards from 1 AD, to about 200 BC.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

They would need a 6-8" telescope to view pluto but the far greater problem is trying to identify a very slow moving planet against a background with millions of stars. Practically a impossibility without time lapse photography. But a 4500 year old siberian cylinder Seal does seem to depict nine planets with either two moons of importance (or two outer planets with highly elliptical orbits). link.

Indeed, my first thought was that the smaller stars represent some kind of constellation while the big one in the middle is one of the most prominent planets, either Jupiter or Venus. But we could be talking about a depiction of the solar system too I suppose.

We have found a 1000 years old lens of similar quality to todays optics ( visby lens) so advanced machinery isn't really needed to make telescopes (some amateurs hand grind/polish their lens with surprising results).

The Norsemen also used a sólarsteinn (sun-stone) to navigate through fog or when the sky was too cloudy to make out Sol's position in the sky. There is still a bit of uncertainty surrounding exactly what the sólarsteinn was and how they used it, but one thinks that it was a block of polished clear Calcite crystal, which allowed them to filter out certain wavelengths and by help of polarisation made them able to spot the sun's position. I suppose they could also use a lens like the Visby one. I actually never heard of the Visby lens until now. Amazing. It could actually be that they have finally found a sólarsteinn

So if telescopes were used by the wise men they just may have not have wanted to share their tools with the world. But if they didn't have telescopes or didn't derive the knowledge through inner inspiration, the other possibility is that just deduced the location of the outer planets from imperfections in the orbits of the inner planets (this is how we knew that Pluto existed before it was found).

Yes, that was how the astronomers first learned where to look for them only to see their calculations were right, so when they pointed ever bigger telescopes to the sky at the calculated positions, they found them, one by one. Pluto was first spotted less than a century ago. It's a long shot.