The ultimate contradiction.

Been wanting to post this for a while, it's something I never got about the various faiths that hold the bible as the ultimate in truth. Aight, i'm gonna go ahead, and jump in. Please, everyone use -logical- arguments when debating.

Definition of Omnipotence:
om·nip·o·tence
ämˈnipətəns/Submit
noun
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.
"God's omnipotence"
synonyms: all-powerfulness, almightiness, supremacy, preeminence, supreme power, absolute power, unlimited power; More

Definition of Omniescense:
om·nis·cient
ämˈniSHənt/Submit
adjective
knowing everything.
"the story is told by an omniscient narrator"
synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing More

Ok, so 'God' is supposed to be all-powerful, and all-knowing. Being all-knowing means that he knew what we were going to do before we did it. So, my question is this: If 'God' knew what we were going to do -before- we did it, how can people say that we have free will? How can we be blamed for sins, when 'The Lord our God' made it this way? It seems like a huge contradiction to me. If 'god' planned it this way, we can't be fauled for 'His' plan.

I have always struggled with your question . I came across this talk that may just hold the answer . Calvinism vs. Molinism - William Lane Craig vs. Paul Helm Molinism, named after 16th Century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a religious doctrine which attempts to reconcile the providence of God with human free will. William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga are some of its best known advocates today, though other important Molinists include Alfred Freddoso and Thomas Flint. In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creatures would freely choose if placed in any circumstance. en.wikipedia.org... a reply to: jjsr420

Hi. I think your question is another demonstration of the absurdity of a supreme being altogether. An omnipotent being would surely know what everyone needed in order for all people to live wonderfully joyful lives together and would have the power to make that come true?!


a reply to: jjsr420

You're stuck on level 1...

God -may- know everything, including what we Do before we even Do it, but how does God knowing of something happening before the fact, mean there is a conflict of Free Will?

God knowing that I -might- sin, doesn't take the choice of sinning (or not) away from me.

I can still do whatever I choose to do. Just because God knew upon my creation, everything I could possibly do, doesn't stop me from making those choices.

Let's put it this way. A person may know the winning Lottery numbers for the upcoming drawing. He could use his knowledge of the numbers to
A) Buy a ticket with the Winning Numbers
B) Give someone else the Numbers
or
C) Do nothing.

if the person chooses to do A or B, he has influenced the Drawing to end in one of two different possibilities.

If that person chooses C, the Drawing will go on as if nothing was amiss, and Statistical Probability will determine the winner...even though this fellow KNEW the Winning Numbers before hand, he did not influence the Drawing.

God is the same way...He may KNOW what choices we will make, but as long as he doesn't interfere, the outcome would be the result of Probability, and "Free Will" remains intact.

But...the thing a lot of people trip over, is the fact that Absolute Free Will does not Exist. ALL of our decisions are influenced by Something, somewhere, or somehow. I may decide not to eat a Radish, but I may have choked on a Radish years prior that makes me scared to eat Radishes...sooo since this decision has been influence by a prior event...is my refusal of eating a Radish an example of Free Will? or does it show the Lack of Free Will?

(I don't know the answer to that last question, its supposed to be Rhetorical)

a reply to: jjsr420
This same idea could apply to many things.
If god knows what is gonna happen, why are there child murderers and rapists?
God just let it happen if that is the case, and that would make him cruel and unworthy of our worship.
I believe the answer lies in one of my signatures.
You are God, and I am you!

originally posted by: jjsr420
So, my question is this: If 'God' knew what we were going to do -before- we did it, how can people say that we have free will?'

If I read a book about the English Civil War, I know everything that Oliver Cromwell is going to do, before he does it. I know all the mistakes his opponents are going to make, before they make them.
Does that mean I'm controlling all their actions and they have no free will? Of course it doesn't.
It just means that all their decisions are accessible from my viewpoint as things they have already done. If they had used their free will to do different things, I would now be seeing those instead.
If God sees your future actions, that does absolutely nothing to prevent you deciding for yourself what your future actions will be.

a reply to: jjsr420
Ive read through the responses and disagree with those who claim free will is still true with the existence of an all-knowing deity.

If he knew long before we were born, each and every little step we will make in our lives, we truly do not have free will. We are not choosing anything, we simply have the illusion of choice. Again, God knows unerringly what we will do long before our birth without fail. How then do we make decisions? I might tell myself i am free to decide my path in this life, but i truly am not, as everything i do will have been mapped out long before my birth.

The only way to reconcile this is if knowledge of the future is one thing God does not know. The lottery analogy used earlier by another ATS member does not hold up unfortunately. Again, since God knows without doubt whether or not you will use the numbers for your gain, its inflexible and impossible to change. Therefore, you lack free will. You cannot say that you made the decision yourself, because it was decided for you long before you "thought" you decided.

I refuse to believe i do not have free will, and have other theories concerning our origin and current state. I believe that our time on the physical is a "holiday" from out eternal spiritual existence, and we come here for the express purpose of excersising free will.

originally posted by: Dustofenese
If that person chooses C, the Drawing will go on as if nothing was amiss, and Statistical Probability will determine the winner...even though this fellow KNEW the Winning Numbers before hand, he did not influence the Drawing.

While it is true he did not influence the winning number, the very fact he knew it ahead of time, without doubt and error, means it is predetermined. Predetermination is the antithesis of free will.

a reply to: jjsr420

God is a metaphysical being.
All logic and reason breaks down when dealing with metaphysics.

That's the reason humans need to anthropomorphise God into a fatherlike figure. They simply can't cognatively
wrap their heads around anything outside of their primitive sense organs and undeveloped intellect.

That's why we have FAITH.....another intellectual construct that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the huge volumes of philosophy, religion, cosmology, etc. are nothing more that intellectual masturbation, supposition, all wrapped up in a layer of BS.....or what is commonly known as language.....but that's another subject all together.

originally posted by: olaru12
That's why we have FAITH.....another intellectual construct that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the huge volumes of philosophy, religion, cosmology, etc. are nothing more that intellectual masturbation, supposition, all wrapped up in a layer of BS.....or what is commonly known as language.....but that's another subject all together.

Would you suggest we do not debate the origins and nature of our universe? I firmly believe your "metaphysical" will one day be unlocked by science. Saying "metaphysical" is simply a cop-out. There is no magic, only science.

a reply to: jjsr420

That's not the only contradiction when it comes to religious beliefs. There are many. There's even contradictions between the God in the old and new testament.

originally posted by: nightbringr

originally posted by: olaru12
That's why we have FAITH.....another intellectual construct that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the huge volumes of philosophy, religion, cosmology, etc. are nothing more that intellectual masturbation, supposition, all wrapped up in a layer of BS.....or what is commonly known as language.....but that's another subject all together.

Would you suggest we do not debate the origins and nature of our universe? I firmly believe your "metaphysical" will one day be unlocked by science. Saying "metaphysical" is simply a cop-out. There is no magic, only science.

No, amigo....if intellectual masturbation is your thing, then you have my blessings.

"Only science" you're still in school aren't you?

As DISRAELI said, having foreknowledge of an event does not mean having control over it.


For another example, if there is a length of hose lying on the ground, you can see it all in one go, every twist and turn and bend.
An ant walking along the inside of the hose will only be able to experience the hose in a linear fashion, each new bend or twist can only be experienced after passing by the previous one.

Just because we know the direction the ant will go, and where the ant will end up, doesn't mean we control the ant.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: nightbringr

originally posted by: olaru12
That's why we have FAITH.....another intellectual construct that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the huge volumes of philosophy, religion, cosmology, etc. are nothing more that intellectual masturbation, supposition, all wrapped up in a layer of BS.....or what is commonly known as language.....but that's another subject all together.

Would you suggest we do not debate the origins and nature of our universe? I firmly believe your "metaphysical" will one day be unlocked by science. Saying "metaphysical" is simply a cop-out. There is no magic, only science.

No, amigo....if intellectual masturbation is your thing, then you have my blessings.

"Only science" you're still in school aren't you?

I'm 43, no. And hey, if you want to believe in magic be my guest!

What if The God, is not God, but more a realm, where all that is in existence, is only, brought about, for the purpose, of slowly connecting, all existence through trial and error, for expanse and growth, then, the fact, that we have chosen to discuss/type this, could be an indication, of us exercising free-will, as I AM sure, if I wished I could stop NOW………….

Instead of continuing, to choose, my desire to learn and further discuss.

The religions imprinted, or influenced within us, are difficult to switch of, as the constant mind wandering, on religion, is not a belief (no matter what we type in arrogance) that is easy for us to define, although mans belief, is what originally distorted, the facts, or, that man distorted the facts, because of belief, to make the facts fit, this is evident in many early religious texts, full of contradictions and elaborate fixes, to make things fit.

We are just beginning, to try and really understand Electromagnetic confinement and electro static plasma confinement and still do not understand the origin of dark matter, or the ability of the nucleus of an atom, but still we make things fit, this is grossly apparent in history.

Our Choices can then enable us, to make things fit, for Truth and personal growth, or fit for the sake of what we think.

a reply to: jjsr420
I don't believe in the bible but this is what I think.

Before we are born, we plan our entire lives out down to the last millisecond. We plan out not just one path but many different paths that are all interwoven so that there are areas where you can branch off. You are never deviating from your plan, you just have options of what path(s) to take.

This is all planned with the other souls that we will interact with & God knows of it all. We still make choices once we are alive, not knowing where exactly we will end up & what will happen along the way. It's still kind of a free will with an all knowing being watching over you.

*scratches head* I don't think I'm quite explaining it well enough but that's the gist of it

a reply to: babloyi

As DISRAELI said, having foreknowledge of an event does not mean having control over it. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

That answer sound like a cop out to me. So what does that mean? God is only an observer, being entertained by a story line that he already knows the ending to?

OP,

What if there was an all knowing, all present God that didn't judge us for our part in the interaction of "this world"? What if God is playing the music, and wrote the choreography, but the way we preform the dance and the rhythm that we "feel" is our own expression and is important to the great dance?

a reply to: jjsr420

. . . something I never got about the various faiths that hold the bible as the ultimate in truth.

You mention the Bible, then give definitions for Omnipotence and Omniscience but don't show how the Bible teaches those things.
I would say that those supposed qualities are later theoretical developments after the Bible was written.

originally posted by: jjsr420
....................

Ok, so 'God' is supposed to be all-powerful, and all-knowing. Being all-knowing means that he knew what we were going to do before we did it. So, my question is this: If 'God' knew what we were going to do -before- we did it, how can people say that we have free will? How can we be blamed for sins, when 'The Lord our God' made it this way? It seems like a huge contradiction to me. If 'god' planned it this way, we can't be fauled for 'His' plan.

The will is the mechanism of consciousness man makes choice with.Man can choose with their will however their will is not free of cause..Every effect(event) has a cause(the law of causation) that was effected by a multitude of causes .The creator God is responsible (in both senses of the word)since they are the original cause of everything.... however man is accountable for all "they" do.

A man only does (wills) what is their nature and character.The core nature of all of mankind is religious which is the amalgamation of all their experiences believed in faith through "their" Belief System religion.That core religious nature of man is "sin" which is falling short and missing the mark of maturity.

The creation of by the creator God is not a plan like man makes plans.It is impossible for man to perceive what the creator God's purposes are in detail because the cause and effects are infinite in nature.The closest we can perceive is through math.The two most significant math theorems that "mirror" the creator Gods "actions" are Pi and Phi (the Golden ratio) both of which are irrational number sums.

The myth of a will free of cause is at the core of all of mans Belief Systems.Some pay lip service to "their God"(which isn't the creator God at all) and say they are doing "Gods will" while believing they have a free will.Many believe it is their "God given" or human right to have a free will when all of their experience contradict. They go as far as to believe without free will they could not "love" God freely as if that's why they have free will.

In the long run it doesn't matter what anyone believes if it is not truth because it is impossible to believe you don't have free will you can only know you don't.That is the very first step of the process of forgiveness which DOES NOT mean in this context "pardoned of guilt"(everyone is 100% accountable for all they do) it means being "freed from bondage" the bondage of your religions belief.None can free themselves form their religious Belief Systems prison only the creator God can and it is not by belief since belief is the antithesis of knowing.

The construct of the sovereignty of the creator God is mirrored in the math theorems of Pi and Phi.They are irrational(infinite) ratio's that never resolve to 'perfected round numbers because they are flexible and always growing to unity "1"..the creator Gods will.The Good News is the creator God has it ALL under control regardless of mans very, very poor(non existent) perception of reality through their false Belief System of their religion by their free will that doesn't exist...Thank God!!