Suspected Chemical Attack in Irbin, Syria!

I too would imagine that if this was a chemical attack, it would not have been perpetrated by the government. They do not wish to give the US any major reason for putting more pressure on them or outright launching a bombing campaign, although it must be remembered that Russia is in Assad's back pocket. Maybe that boosts his confidence a bit. But like Mr. Ewok noted, one could likely expect an attack by dedicated chemical weapons to be much more potent. I am not an expert on these matters, as I retired from launching chemical attacks on civilians in Middle Eastern countries years ago, but that makes sense to me. And yes, for those who did not get it immediately, I was not being serious. I don't want men in suits showing up at my house. I can't dig any more holes in my backyard. I'm probably just asking for trouble now.

originally posted by: thesaneone
If I was Assad I would use impure chemical weapons just so it looks like the rebels are doing it plus not as many people would die. It would keep the u.n off their backs.

So what your saying is Assad should resort to the tactics that rebels have used over the last 3 years? As for the U.N, where were they when Assad was giving them a list of the extremists operating in Syria? They turned their back on him. To me it sounds as though the U.N don't really care unless it's Assad committing the apparent atrocities.

a reply to: crazyewok

See thousands of casualties?

Based on what pray tell?

Chemical weapons / Biological weapons are impacted by the environment they are released in. Secondly Assad and his men are capable of being morons when it comes to putting these items together, loading the chemicals and then rigging the device to explode in a manner that releases the chemical / bio weapon in a large area while at the same time the blast is not powerful enough to adversely affect the contagion. Not to mention the fact that even Assad's forces are starting to use delivery methods that are ad-hock. The delivery device of these items is just as important for a successful attack as the item contained inside.

In case others missed it Syria has not turned over all of its chemical weapons as some are still unaccounted for. Since Syrian forces have regained control of these areas the rebels did not have access to these items.

To not understand how these weapons work and how environmental factors affect its effectiveness, coupled with your mindset that Assad's goons are incapable of making a mistake that would prevent the item from detonating correctly is.. well...

Stupid

To ignore the homemade vids online some time ago of Islamic terrorists testing chemical weapons and blaming Assad for them is....stupid

You and posters like yourself can't pull the wool over our eyes,the west desperately want to use NATO airforce to cripple his army and destroy his airforce so the murdering cesspit of evil that is the terrorists can other throw Assad with the next target being Iran

Assad knows The Libya situation well,and giving the west an excuse to decimate his forces is not on his agenda

originally posted by: thesaneone
If I was Assad I would use impure chemical weapons just so it looks like the rebels are doing it plus not as many people would die. It would keep the u.n off their backs.

And if I was the rebels id be trying to make it look like Assad was attacking to get the fools in the west involved.

Just remember the rebels are just as bad as Assad! There is no good side.

US should NOT be sending the Calvary in here.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: crazyewok

See thousands of casualties?

Based on what pray tell?

Simple chemistry

Look at the Tokyo subway attack. Literally NO delivery method, just pierced bags of the stuff. Sarin is not mustard gas. Its a extremely potent bastard.

Even the most the pictures I have seen of the victims in the previous attacks don't correspond to sarin usage, more to hydrogen cyanide.

You make it sound Assad is the monster and the Rebels are honorable freedom fighters!

As far as I see both sides are as evil and twisted as each other.

But hey send the USA in! Lets screw it up even more!

a reply to: Whereismypassword

What part of my post did you not understand?

I already stated that as of 2013, of the 14 attacks reported, the bulk of those attacks are being attributed to rebels.

Secondly watching a video is one thing.. Actually knowing beyond a doubt what chemicals are being is required. We could see 15 videos showing rebels or 15 videos showing Assad forces "loading" however with out knowing the chemical used its kind of hard to make a definitive conclusion.

If the recent attack is composed of a chemical one side has and the other does not, then there is the area to start the investigation.

Since Syria is forbidding that action, we need to assume both sides are culpable.

a reply to: crazyewok

Ill make the same comment to you. What part of my post did you not understand. I stated that of the 14 cases reported in 2013, the bulk are being attributed to the rebels. There are no official results for 2014 that I have seen. Just the reports it may have occurred.

I am not making Assad sound like anything as he is doing that on his own. If you want the otherside of the coin the same argument can be made by you towards the rebels.

Its not out of the realm of possibility for government forces to not be in uniform. We have seen that enough times with Iran. Since a Republican Guard commander from Iran was recently killed in Syria, it lends to the possibility the attacks might not be as they are portrayed.

I have offered other possible options. At no time did I endorse one side over the other.

What I am saying is YouTube videos / conclusions without investigations and facts proves nothing. Hence the reason for determining what chemical was used, how it was delivered etc etc.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You know what they say about assuming right?

Why don't we go with probability and past occurrences. If past history is to be considered, then there is approximately an 80 percent chance or higher this was the rebels this time...while less than a 20% chance it was Assad's forces.

So, while probability does not rule out Assad completely, the greater likelihood is not to assume Assad's forces did anything. this occurrence further point to the rebels when the Arab nations against Assad said they had a plan to stop Russia from providing support to Assad and to gain more UN action toward getting Assad removed. That bumps the likelihood up even higher toward believing the rebels had something to do with this, and Assad even lower in the percentage probability.

Assad actually only has one incentive to do this, and many incentives not to, while the rebels have nothing to loose, and everything to gain.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

All warfare is based on deception
- Sun Tzu

normally I would agree with the assumption portion but what else do we have? Reports saying both sides have done this is pretty much it.

Both sides are making the claim the other side used them.

The assumption both sides have used them, based on info to date, is valid.

If it is in fact confirmed that Syria has used them then they are pretty much screwed being they signed / ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention treaty. If its confirmed the rebels have then whoever supplied them is screwed.

Until Assad agrees to or until Assad is removed from power we have no definitive method to investigate the claims.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The fact is, I have seen the FSA terrorists use bathtub chemical weapons on their own video and it was weak, sloppy and reckless..just like this attack sounds to have been. Half ass from start to finish and doing the best some set of instructions say to.

Check online for the video of the rabbits. That was among the FSA's test cases for developing their bathtub NBC capability.

On the other hand, the Syrian National Government would have one hell of a time converting a REAL chem warhead to be that *WEAK* without killing themselves in the process of meddling with it. The factory produced warheads aren't meant to kill a few and injure half a dozen. They're meant to entirely remove the population of a given area. Neighborhood...city....region. Whatever the warhead is designed for.

This was some rebel punks science project gone stupidly bad, by all appearances and in my opinion. It's also not the first half ass attack we've seen in Syria using bathtub quality slime. About what I expect from homemade resources.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

When rebels overrun government military bases, control entire cities all the while the Syrian government is fighting to hold power for a few years now -

Yes I think the Syrian government forces can be just as inept when it comes to military matters. Once again I am saying it needs to be investigated, the chemicals identified and go from there. The treaty has chemicals / precursors that are broken down into schedule I, schedule II and Schedule III (pretty much like the US Controlled substance act).

* - SI has no application other than military
* - S2 has extremely limited use in civilian areas.
* - S3 used mainly in civilian / research fields.

Assad has gone on record a few times now stating he would not use Chemical weapons on his own people. The double speak in that sentence can be found by his previous comments towards "rebels". They are outside groups who should ne be involved and those Syrians who took up arms against them are no better than the outside groups.

So when Assad says he wont use chemical weapons on his own people, his own people don't cover rebels / "disloyal" Syrians. As for youtube videos as sources you know I am not a fan of them. They are way to easy to manipulate and there is a history in that region of propaganda via youtube videos.

Question - If its the rebels that used Chemical Weapons then why would Assad prevent independent investigation into them?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Why should Assad allow more idiots into a war zone?

Have you followed the UN people already being kidnapped and ransomed back the Rebels while in Syria for official UN business? I can imagine he doesn't want to bait the trap, even if he wouldn't mind seeing some UN blues play cheese for awhile. He wouldn't be heart broken if they were eaten in the process too, I'm sure. bad P.R. though and Putin probably asked he not go out of his way to see the Blue Helmets play dinner item to the FSA.


Still.. Assad is like most leaders. He wants one thing more than ANY other thing this life and world can give him. He wants another day to see more of it. He doesn't get another day of living if he's ever...just ONE TIME...proven beyond question to have ordered or used chemical weapons on civilian populations. Just once will be all it ever takes.

If Obama can't find the guts to end the world's misery, then Bibi damn sure will if that happens with proof.

They kinda ..sorta..well. almost proved something last year but then that kinda fell apart when it became obvious the multi-site attack investigation was more assumption based on presumption than any solid science or evidence from the field. Russia also wouldn't tolerate the fantasy B.S., so that whole attempt died as sure as the victims who went for nothing.


Now of course, some people are SO powerfully pro-American and SO powerfully ANTI- anything on Earth which is not.....evidence like these Rebels having the very chemicals they are using on people..and video taping themselves developing and testing them..won't convince them. It's still easier to believe...against ANY good logical reasons to support it....a national Government would break a world taboo ...to kill a few no-name civilians in an insignificant corner of a war the rebels are NOT winning anymore.

I don't buy it..and I'll call this one a rebel screw up..as others have been..until something more than knee-jerk anti-Syria reaction suggests more than homemade garbage being used.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
.........until something more than knee-jerk anti-Syria reaction suggests more than homemade garbage being used.

Like a knee-jerk anti rebel reaction that suggests Assad's regime is growing desperate and that they would use homemade garbage in an effort to get away with using chemicals weapons in a manner that is hard to determine who used it while containing chemicals both sides could have access to?

Just arguing the other side of the coin since no one else wanted to.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: crazyewok

Ill make the same comment to you. What part of my post did you not understand. I stated that of the 14 cases reported in 2013, the bulk are being attributed to the rebels. There are no official results for 2014 that I have seen. Just the reports it may have occurred.

I am not making Assad sound like anything as he is doing that on his own. If you want the otherside of the coin the same argument can be made by you towards the rebels.

Its not out of the realm of possibility for government forces to not be in uniform. We have seen that enough times with Iran. Since a Republican Guard commander from Iran was recently killed in Syria, it lends to the possibility the attacks might not be as they are portrayed.

I have offered other possible options. At no time did I endorse one side over the other.

What I am saying is YouTube videos / conclusions without investigations and facts proves nothing. Hence the reason for determining what chemical was used, how it was delivered etc etc.

My apologizes for the misunderstanding.

The fact is I don't think we can determine really who has done what.

All I know is the us in the west need to stay well clear.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I see your still on my line of thinking.

It just doesn't sit right this whole thing does it?

Assads forces are not desperate they are easily winning,even my dear countries BBC new told me that less than a week ago -they even went so far to imply it could all be over for the rebels

But it won't be over because someone wants to use our superior Air Force to flatten his countries military and change leader

Those FSA rebels when they leave Syria will be a threat to any nation they arrive in,why on earth we help these blood thirsty monsters is beyond me

a reply to: Xcathdra

There is absolutely nothing knee jerk about an assessment I'm making from having watched and researched the FSA's previous use and attempted use of chemical agents. They've also been busted cold in Turkey with live Sarin weapons, intended to be used in a Turkish town to trigger a border fight and wider war. An affiliate group was busted with the same slime materials in Baghdad with remote control aircraft in the apartment, giving a pretty good hint of what they had in mind to attempt.

So..I may be quick to judge, but it's quick from a long history of these animals having demonstrated a total disregard to human life or even their own personal survival, if it means the cause is advanced.

Assad is a dictator and at times, he's been a fool. A fanatic isn't something I'd term him as, nor does his family show any history in actions to support that. The rebels and specifically the Al Nusra faction among them ARE fanatic Sunni terrorists.

I'll give credit where it fits best by all known facts and history of actions. Case by Case, as always with me.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

There are a number of countries who support the rebels (not methods) to remove Assad. A point that has pissed Assad off over the last couple of years.

Has it crossed anyone's mind that some of these attacks may be occurring by Assad's forces / contract forces in an effort to kill support for the rebels by other nations? Had it not been for countries supporting the Rebels (weapons etc) Assad may have won a couple years back.

If he cant get nations on board to stop sending weapons to the rebels why not create an incident that points at the Rebels? Kill the source of their supplies and the rebels will go down faster.

There are times when we watch a video that suggest one thing only to find out it is something completely different.

originally posted by: crazyewok

My apologizes for the misunderstanding.

The fact is I don't think we can determine really who has done what.

All I know is the us in the west need to stay well clear.

No worries its cool.

Just annoyed when people paint me into a position I don't hold. It seems to be a reoccurring theme in some of these threads. People for some reason think they know what my position is on any given topic based on other threads. It just irks me lol.

I support an investigation into the incidents and would like to see prosecution if facts warrant it.