The ACLU comes to my little county

I actually heard about this about a week ago but could not verify it. Looks like it finally made local news and it's spreading around facebook a bit as well. I though I would see how everyone else felt about it.

ACLU: Ten Commandments, Christian hymn in Lee Co. school violate First Amendment

This is the letter from the ACLU that was sent in pdf. Aclu letter

So they have a couple of issues with the particular school in my county. I may want to note that all the schools in this county do pretty much the same thing so I would expect letters to other county schools to show up. Any way to summarize the complaint:

1: Till we meet again, a hymn that is sung at graduation and has been for appx 60 years.
2: A plague of the 10 commandments hangs in the hallway
3: Teacher involvement in a school sponsored christian club as well as using school time for said club and "testifying"
4: Events for teachers (lunch and dinner events) are opened with prayer.

The first 2 have been a part of the school since its inception appx 70 years ago. The other two are very recent. The citations of court cases given by the aclu in the letter cites first amendment violations. Basically the letter is saying stop and send a letter of assurance that you have. It goes on to point out that while these things have to stop it must respect a persons right in these respects giving examples: students posting 10 commandments on their locker, gathering for prayer before school or meal prayers, religious themed clothing and such.

The people in the community here are very upset. The principle of the school has publicly responded stating there will be no singing at the graduation and the plague has been removed. The support of the decision is small while the public outcry(primarily facebook and some yard signs so far) is basically one sided saying it's wrong. My personal stance, while I do understand the case law presented, is sort of torn since I have no issue with religion as a whole. It's hard to separate a tradition that has gone on for such a long time. So I'm asking what your opinions are concerning it. And please, for the sake of conversation, I realize people view religion as evil and god as a "skydaddy" but neither of those comments will make for a positive interaction. I also realize that people feel that everything wrong with the world is due to god being removed and it's all the muslims and atheists fault, again that's not relevant nor helpful. Anything having to do with religion is a touchy subject but please attempt to discuss it without degrading one another. Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

i used to hate the ACLU until i was old enough to figure out what "civil liberties" were. I think if they spent less time on social engineering (like the OP story) and more time in Albequerque, folks would "get it" more easily.

Stories like this is what makes the public revile the ACLU.

a reply to: drivers1492

Hey there. I know it seems odd to believers that these things aren't allowed in school. Especially when it has been such a long standing tradition. But they will never understand how alienating and demoralizing it is for those who don't believe in that particular skydaddy. Perhaps a month of forced muslim prayers or prayers to satan will help them understand why any one religion should not be promoted in public school. School is a place to learn about real things anyway and i'm glad people are realizing this. Some of them any way. If you had to guess, how strong is the view that this is the right thing to do in your community?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: drivers1492

Hey there. I know it seems odd to believers that these things aren't allowed in school. Especially when it has been such a long standing tradition. But they will never understand how alienating and demoralizing it is for those who don't believe in that particular skydaddy. Perhaps a month of forced muslim prayers or prayers to satan will help them understand why any one religion should not be promoted in public school. School is a place to learn about real things anyway and i'm glad people are realizing this. Some of them any way. If you had to guess, how strong is the view that this is the right thing to do in your community?

im not a christian, but see nothing wrong with the 10 commandments. All in all, not a bad guide to behavior.

a reply to: Woodcarver

To my knowledge there was no force involved unless you consider the plaque was publicly in view. I spoke with a parent who has a child that graduated last year from the school in question and the singing is not a mandatory activity. Their child did not take part in it. The community as a whole(and i stress vast majority) do not view this as the right thing to do. While many simply state that it's a removal of god, many stand by the tradition of it. These are small towns in this county and they are very strong in their faith and support of god and church. So the idea of forcing them to partake of islamic or satanic prayer and such I honestly don't see the value in it.

It doesn't matter if it's forced or not. If religion is part of any officially sanctioned activity or daily routine...participants can know - just by looking around- who participates and who doesn't ..I can image that, particularly in a small community, it acts to divide or judge people.

What purpose does it serve at a public school compared to the social cost of alienating students or staff?

I'm with BFFT here except I do agree with the prayer thing and the club. If they want to do those things there are churches…students can do what they will on their own. If a group of students wants to pray together fine but don't let it get in the way of classes which is why they're there in the first place. I can't see why you wouldn't want students to have a reminder of good morals though. The hymn is tradition and it's music not religion if your enough of an ardent objector to religion well just don't sing it…no one is gonna make you.

I would also like to see the ACLU down in Albuquerque as well. Places like that are the ones that need cease and desist letters sent. Also a bunch of lawyers to clean that mess up and put a lot of those corrupt officers behind bars!

a reply to: kosmicjack
I understand your position and agree with it somewhat. I know from personal experience in this county that being a non believer gets some grief but nothing that causes any issue really. I do honestly thing the social cost or alienation is a tad bit overstated. At most the response I get around here is just people responding with wow really? you dont believe in god? But I have never felt alienation or anything of the sort. My girls, the oldest one at least closely shares my view on god. She is undecided and has no issue expressing it when questioned or if it comes up in conversation and she has never experienced anything she considers negative in her opinion. Not to say it doesn't happen because it does. I just think things of this nature should be weighed in a local level not a blanket covering of how things should be.

a reply to: RickyD

I can only really support the change if people are being forced in some way to take part or if resources are being used in support of it. The club appears to be the case of the latter. The plaque I see nothing wrong with. But they will have to accept if I as a parent feel that the basic tenants or commandments of another faith be posted as well since my child attended school there that they have no issue with it.

a reply to: drivers1492

I agree with you on that…and as long as the tenants of another faith don't advocate something morally wrong then have at it. Why should we remind our young ones what good morals are and also that they can be found anywhere…not just christianity.

originally posted by: drivers1492
a reply to: RickyD

I can only really support the change if people are being forced in some way to take part or if resources are being used in support of it. The club appears to be the case of the latter. The plaque I see nothing wrong with. But they will have to accept if I as a parent feel that the basic tenants or commandments of another faith be posted as well since my child attended school there that they have no issue with it.

Posting the ten commandments is like posting a death threat to children. Because... What is the supposed price for disobeying any of them? This is very confusing for kids. Besides most of them have nothing to do with morality. As for equally posting all religious views? Yea right, good luck finding the funds for ink and paper.

The whole point is that religions really have no moral authority. They only bring confusion and division to the one place we need consensus and community. Our public schools.

i hear what everyone is saying. But its hard to fight back the gag reflex when I hear something resembling "its for the children".

a reply to: Woodcarver

It's hard for me to agree with that stance. Having been raised with a religious family, we predominately attended a church of christ most of my life, I don't recall feeling threatened by punishment for my actions due to the bibles commandment adherence. Not to say that it isn't stressed that way by churches since I have been to a couple over the years. For me, making the statement that it's like a death threat, is simply pushing a simple situation to an extreme. This particular incident is a high school so were not discussing kids that haven't developed problem solving capabilities. I could be very wrong but I highly doubt any of them give the plaque a second thought the 4 years they attend there.

I think you will find that the community is coming together over this. There is a majority consensus here about this particular situation, and it's because of religion that they are coming together. I know religion can cause problems but in my life I have seen more positive aspects of it bringing unity among people than division. That's why I don't support the idea that it's the cause of nothing but problems.

This is what I hope happens. I hope the kids at graduation stand up and sing. I hope the parents stand with them. I hope they pray without guidance at the graduation to show the world that they stand together even if the world doesn't see it. If nothing else to show themselves that they have the ability to make a stand for what they hold dear to them. If they do, as an atheist/agnostic, I will support them 100%.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It may just be me but I don't think anyone was threatening them...as a kid I had to go with my parents to church and all that. You know sunday school and the whole 9. I never really believed the stuff I heard there...bible stories and such. I do think I was better off learning the morals behind them which was always what was made important. You are making it out to be something it most likely isn't...unless they're the weird culty type of Christians lol.

originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: Woodcarver

It may just be me but I don't think anyone was threatening them...as a kid I had to go with my parents to church and all that. You know sunday school and the whole 9. I never really believed the stuff I heard there...bible stories and such. I do think I was better off learning the morals behind them which was always what was made important. You are making it out to be something it most likely isn't...unless they're the weird culty type of Christians lol.

Anyone care to answer my question? What is the supposed price for disobeying any of the commandments?

Im glad that some of these folks are able to use rationale to overcome the nonsense of religion. But they aren't the ones that need protection. What about those who aren't brave or strong willed enough to stand up and speak for themselves.
We didn't ban drugs for the good things they do. We don't regulate guns because of the good things they can be used for. Im sure there are plenty of kids there that see this my way. Religion has been BANNED in public schools period.... And not because of the good things that come from it or because it's been found to be overwhelmingly true in any of it's assertions.

The ten commandments are most definitely a threat to ones life and well being no matter how seriously they are taken. They are presented as so in the bible. If they are posted in a school then it is obviously being regarded as an authoritative document. Would you agree that some at the school believe that it is authoritative? Don't you think some there would teach it as so? Doesn't it being posted in a school lend it authority? Why else have it there except as a reminder of the punishment that it implies?

Morals are better taught without the threat of death.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Im not a Christian, but I see some value in the 10 Commandments. They are a historically significant and culturally significant grouping of words/ideas. There is heritage there. Now, we can cast away heritage if we so choose. Lord knows we have done it enough to other cultures.

But this all comes across more like a chip on the shoulder to me.

Were a school to erect a monument to The 8 Noble Truths, and denote cultural significance, would those shouting it down be declared "racists"?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Pretty sure man invented the punishment of death in this case as I truly don't remember anywhere in the bible that it says god will strike you down for not following his laws. If it did we would all be having a laugh cause people sure do ignore those commandments quite often…there'd sure be a lot of folks being stricken down. In light of that sentiment I think your argument may be nullified…at least to me unless you can show me where it says god will strike you down for not obeying his commandments.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I do understand your position and let me answer your question plainly. The punishment is (depending on your personal interpretation) damnation or death(spiritual death).

The problems this particular school is having isn't based on religion being banned from school, btw it isn't, but the school is a step outside it's legal limits by supporting it. If it were actually banned then a student would not be allowed to pray on school grounds publicly. If you did take the time to read the letter from the aclu you would find that your assertion of "banned" isn't correct. So while I personally don't have issue with the plaque the law does. So your left with a majority of the counties population feeling that the law is wrong in that respect. Whether or not you personally feel it is nonsense they do not and should in my opinion stand up for what they feel is right.

Morality needs no threat to be taught I agree, but one cannot deny the contributions of various religions throughout history. Good and bad contributions I doubt anyone actually argues that point but what seems to be the trend is to only look at the negative aspect of faiths. That is sad to me.

Atheist/agnostic whatever my label is I will stand with the kids of the school in whatever they feel is right. If they choose to sing and pray I will stand with them.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I find it odd that few people ever agree with me when I point out the historical and cultural significance of religion in our history. It's a massive contribution yet constantly overlooked.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Woodcarver

Im not a Christian, but I see some value in the 10 Commandments. They are a historically significant and culturally significant grouping of words/ideas. There is heritage there. Now, we can cast away heritage if we so choose. Lord knows we have done it enough to other cultures.

But this all comes across more like a chip on the shoulder to me.

Were a school to erect a monument to The 8 Noble Truths, and denote cultural significance, would those shouting it down be declared "racists"?

hey Texan, lots of people don't see the harm implied by the ten commandments. Often siting the heritage of such ideas. But that is not a reason to continue teaching these things as truth. Which is what these and other teachers are being accused of. Here is a list that covers the punishments that are to be dealt out according to the bible. Each and every one a clear threat to the well being of the no conformer.

1. Ex. 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Lev. 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.
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3. Ex. 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
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4. Ex. 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
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5. Ex. 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
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6. Ex. 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
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7. Lev. 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Lev. 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
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9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be ******.
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10. Mal. 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.



It does not matter what an individuals interpretation of the bible is. It says quite plainly what it means. Now what part of that heritage do you find worthy of propogating. Now if your speaking of just educating kids on what all the dif religions are and what they mean and the thousands of interpretations of each of them. I can see that being relevant, but how do you put ALL of that into context and make any sense of it. Much less find time for it in their already stretched capacity.

Nope that is why there is a blanket BAN on teaching religion in public schools. I realise i misspoke earlier when i said "a ban on religion in school. "