Could Space/Time and Gravity be the same thing?

Could Space/Time and Gravity be the same thing? I have been wondering lately if space/time is created by gravity or is space/time just how matter interacts inside Gravity Fields. Thus outside gravity space/time does not exist. This would mean that space/time is different around objects with more gravity than objects with less gravity? Maybe no space/time in between galaxies once your far enough away from the galaxies gravity field?

As matter clumps each particle of matter sheds a bit of its gravity field to create a new larger gravity field around the clumped particles. More matter the strong and larger the gravity field. Maybe this expansion of space/time they seem to think is happening is just an expansion of gravity fields as galaxies gather more and more matter and matter condenses more and more the fields grow ever stronger AND larger.

Would this not explain away dark energy?

So instead of thinking space/time is a fabric that pushes matter together perhaps its the matter clumping that causes space/time.

i believe albert einstein touched on this (minus the dark energy) in his theory of special relativity.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
i believe albert einstein touched on this (minus the dark energy) in his theory of special relativity.

Oh ok. I thought he more or less said there is space/time first that causes matter to clump. Chicken before the egg. I am saying the gravity causes the effects we call space/time. Maybe I just need to understand Einstein theories better.

SO it is common thought that outside gravity wells there is no space/time as we know it here inside this huge gravity well called Milky Way?

a reply to: Xeven

Here's an article which supports a link between space/time and gravity that you might find interesting. physicsworld.com...

a reply to: Xeven

there is no "outside gravity wells" unless you get "outside" the universe, whatever that may mean. gravity pervades every inch of the universe, although in between stars it's pull can be quite undetectable, unless you live millions of years to watch it's miniscule effect. newtons law of universal gravitation, (that einstein based some of his research on) says this. i agree that they are most definitely related, just like electricity and magnetism, they are two sides of the same coin.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
a reply to: Xeven

there is no "outside gravity wells" unless you get "outside" the universe, whatever that may mean. gravity pervades every inch of the universe, although in between stars it's pull can be quite undetectable, unless you live millions of years to watch it's miniscule effect. newtons law of universal gravitation, (that einstein based some of his research on) says this. i agree that they are most definitely related, just like electricity and magnetism, they are two sides of the same coin.

How can we know gravity pervades every inch of the universe? Not denying it, just not sure how we can know that since we live inside a huge gravity well and have never sent anything outside it to determine what is there?

a reply to: Xeven

How could we see those other galaxies if there was no space-time between them? What would happen to the light that hits our telescopes when they hit a section without time or space. The light would stop traveling no? Distance being a measure space, velocity being a measure of time.

Also there wouldn't really be any "there" to send a probe to, since it has no space.

Interesting thoughts I'm no physicist so what do I know.

originally posted by: bhornbuckle75
a reply to: Xeven

Here's an article which supports a link between space/time and gravity that you might find interesting. physicsworld.com...

Read the article. Here is the part I am thinking maybe different than how it is currently perceived.

Confirmation of this effect supports the idea that gravity is a manifestation of space–time curvature because the flow of time is no longer constant throughout the universe but varies according to the distribution of massive bodies. Reinforcing the idea of space–time curvature is important when distinguishing between different theories of quantum gravity because there are some versions of string theory in which matter can respond to something other than the geometry of space–time.

See I am thinking that space-time is a manifestation of gravity rather than the other way around. Or they are just the same thing.

What I am getting at is would light travel faster once it left our galaxy? If space-time is different with differing gravity then light would travel faster in areas with lower gravity?

So to an observer standing outside Milky way and Andromeda watched a Photon leave Milkyway on its way to Andromeda center it would appear to this observer that the photon would speed up in between Milky way on its way to Andromeda. Once the photon got close to Andromeda it would appear to the observer to slow down again. In other words once it left gravity effects of both galaxies it would no longer be restricted in speed based on the gravity of each of the galaxies.

a reply to: Xeven

we can't. but without educated guesses and assumptions, there would be no science. honestly, i know that, the more i know, the more i know nothing. if the equations work, we just go with it, until something disproves it, or a more accurate theory comes along. they are trying to get a grand unified theory together, and the fact that it is so elusive points to mistakes in the underlying theories. i think einstein was wrong about some things, but that he was on the right track.

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: bhornbuckle75
a reply to: Xeven

Here's an article which supports a link between space/time and gravity that you might find interesting. physicsworld.com...

Read the article. Here is the part I am thinking maybe different than how it is currently perceived.

Confirmation of this effect supports the idea that gravity is a manifestation of space–time curvature because the flow of time is no longer constant throughout the universe but varies according to the distribution of massive bodies. Reinforcing the idea of space–time curvature is important when distinguishing between different theories of quantum gravity because there are some versions of string theory in which matter can respond to something other than the geometry of space–time.

See I am thinking that space-time is a manifestation of gravity rather than the other way around. Or they are just the same thing.

What I am getting at is would light travel faster once it left our galaxy? If space-time is different with differing gravity then light would travel faster in areas with lower gravity?

So to an observer standing outside Milky way and Andromeda watched a Photon leave Milkyway on its way to Andromeda center it would appear to this observer that the photon would speed up in between Milky way on its way to Andromeda. Once the photon got close to Andromeda it would appear to the observer to slow down again. In other words once it left gravity effects of both galaxies it would no longer be restricted in speed based on the gravity of each of the galaxies.

i think i understand what you mean now. i never really thought about whether gravity or space-time caused the other to show up. i have thought about the light though. since it has been shown to travel at the same speed whether or not it's source is moving as well, it leads me to believe that light particle-waves are related to gravity and space-time as well. but in the past few years, they APPARENTLY have shown that IT IS POSSIBLE to unify electromagnetism (including light) and gravity. but i wouldn't hold my breath.

in the interest of science in general, and original thought, a star and flag for you.

Could Space/Time and Gravity be the same thing?

Yes because we don't know what any of them are and the hicks boson turned out to be a field to explain away another field and answered nothing.

My computer games all have space/time/gravity and little people running around and I know that my DNA is computer code and that my brain acts like a computer.

Well darm me you don't think that ..................................... because logic says its true

originally posted by: fixitwcw
in the interest of science in general, and original thought, a star and flag for you.

Thank you sir. Am always thinking. Know I am wrong a lot but like to think so I get it. Not great in maths but can imagine things and how they work fairly well. I am able to predict lots of things in life. Not like a magical thought more like I can see through imagination how things will play out.

It's on the right track. Call me an oddball with no physics background, but my hunch in regards to gravity is this...

Convert mass to it's energy equivalent. (Btw, it's going to be a ridiculously large number.)
The next step involves figuring out how much charge that energy can be equivalent to in relation to things like the photoelectric effect.
Then compare that to the permittivity of a vacuum.

What happens if it gets over-saturated? (Or under some stress condition that should cause a breakdown? As I might not have the right terminology for it.) Since it's a vacuum, it can't breakdown (at least with breaking most rules of known physics), so what adjustment can be made (if you had to break only one "rule"?) to keep the constants constant?

The thing that would sound screwy is that space can only hold so much energy, before time itself starts to slow down. (It's almost like there's some limitation on the amount of information that can be handled at once.) The differential or flux gradient in this delta-t causes an acceleration. Guess what that acceleration is?

Problem is, I don't have the background to explain it any better. It's something that'll have to be left to somebody with the right background (mathematics or physics) to see if that idea is stupid or not.

I also think we'll know a lot more if those guys working on the process of turning light into matter have any success in their future experiments. I'd also suspect polarization may have a role in matter/anti-matter ratios in that process, but it'll still be a while before we find out for sure.

a reply to: Xeven
Yes space, time and gravity can be the same thing.
BUT! Because there is always a "but" to everything.
Space, time and gravity can also be, not the same thing. Hence your current dilemma.

Let's start by stealing some formula's from Einstein and Newton.

h = Plancks constant 6.626*10^-34 m^2kg/s
G = Gravitional constant 6.67*10^-11 Nm^2/kg^2
C = Speed of Light constant 2.998*10^8 m/s
m = mass
r = radius
F = force
d = distance
f = frequency
a = acceleration
P = momentum
PE = potential energy

E = m * C^2
m = (h * f) / c^2
F = G * ((m1 * m2) / r^2)
PE = d * m * a

At this point it should be pretty obvious that the universe is a big place (lots of mass and space).
Based on E=mc^2 it should be obvious that all mass (matter) has energy and vice-versa.
The next thing that should be obvious is that energy can also be stored in space as an electromagnetic frequency, and/or potential energy between two objects of matter and/or kinetic energy in an object that has moving-mass.

Now obviously for an object of volume V to "move" a distance D you need a X amount of space for which to move it in
some dimensional length of the volume axis + D, and it will also take some amount of time T to perform that movement (for an object that has mass, at least.)

So for any kinetic energy to exist there needs to be space and time, otherwise there is no velocity etc etc
For potential energy to exist, all you need is mass and space, and there is a LOT of that in the universe; therefore the universe has near-infinite potential energy.

With no space, light can't move at the speed of light.
With no space (distance of zero) then PE = 0 * m * a = 0
With no extra space, then there is no movement, no velocity, thus kinetic energy also = 0.
For gravity with no space r=0, you get a division by zero error: F = G * ((m1 * m2) / r^2)

The only way energy can be created or destroyed is by having or not having space itself.

The weird thing about gravity is that it can bend space. In order to bend space you need a 5th dimension, something beyond space-time for which to "fold" the space into.

My theory is that this is nonsense.
Gravity doesn't bend space, it causes X number of mass-bodies to accelerate towards each other, and also bends light.
It bends the light simply by changing it's trajectory by applying a force to it, the speed of light remains constant and the space remains unbent, the light is just forced to travel through more space than it would compared to a straight line (i.e a curve).
This is how you can see stars from behind the sun.

It isn't bending the space into a 5th dimension or some-such. LOL
How gravity manages to effect light in this way is a question perhaps not fully understood.
I wouldn't be overly surprised if they said that gravity could also shift the frequency of light up or down slightly as well.
With my help Stephen Hawking might now be able to figure out how black holes operate without violating all the laws of physics (you can thank me later )

But a harder question is: What created space/matter/energy? or did it just selfmanifest somehow and tied our consciousness to this realm via some sort of quantum tunnelling effect into what appears to be this "virtual reality" you call "the universe"?

Also, do we have free-will or are we merely forced to be subjected to it without any choice in the matter?
Perhaps it is a mix of both, like a video game where you get to fully control the player and make it do whatever it can do, but the player is limited to the pre-programmed laws / environment / interactions? Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I just got done watching Through the Wormhole a tv show. on one of the episode they where talking about time and the other episode about gravity on one they said it was possible that time could be linked with heat and the other one they said theirs a possibility that it could be linked with heat . That got me thinking on what if gravity and time are the same thing or time and gravity would be related to each other. So i did a search and found this thread.

Gravity and time certainly are related.
One of the main takeaways of Relativity is that clocks slow down at low velocities and in gravity wells.
Google GPS and relativity to read more about it.

In response to OP, I have always felt like c is not necessarily constant over cosmic distances/the life of the universe.
I have no evidence for this other than that it has the ring of truth to me.

If c is faster outside of a heavy gravity such as a star or even a galaxy, it could explain some things that don't quite add up for me (age of universe seems very low to have gone through the generations of stars needed to produce the heavy elements that are used in planet formation, for example).

I meant clocks slow down at high velocities and low in gravity wells, sorry about that.

After first learning Einstein's theory of relativity and space-time postulation I remember wondering if the universe were to suddenly stop expanding, would time cease to exist and everything "freeze?"a reply to: Xeven