SWAT team throws stun grenade in toddler's crib

a reply to: tadaman

Thanks for that bit, this really opens the eyes of the public to the true nature of corruption in law enforcement agencies.

I really think this garbage goes to show that law enforcement agencies at large should have an open door policy with the community, with the public, they should have more of a say in the policies which define the police and the public should have access to all the paperwork, all case details, and most investigations. The irony I find is that the police often look at the community and demand such a level of transparency and data collection the Nazis would be jealous of, yet they don't allow that transparency to go both ways. This is hypocritical and just turns police stations into mini-nazi regimes.

originally posted by: hogstooth
a reply to: trollz

How it even got into the crib needs to be seriously investigated. Those things are supposed to be thrown at floor level kind of like rolling a bowling ball because of the risk of serious injury or death if explodes near the face. Any "highly trained" SWAT team should know that.

Of course they claim they didn't know a family was there though a family vehicle with child seat was there.

So..they knew.

And why would they ever throw anything like that to garner the element of surprise into a home with family and children?

There is absolutely no reason!

a reply to: trollz

Generally when you throw a flashbang, or stun grenade, you aren't exactly aiming it. From the loads of special forces videos I've watched over the years (the real, training documentary kind), you stack up on the door, and either as you're opening the door, the grenade has already been thrown and will explode as soon as the first guy is fully in the room (they have a VERY short fuse), or they open the door slightly and chuck one in, close it for a second as it goes off, and then go in. Either way, you're not exactly picking a target for it to land.

Here's some SAS footage to show you what I'm talking about. The stuns start at around 2:35 and continue for a while.



What's more, having a child in the house, and then having enough drugs present to warrant a full SWAT team to raid your house, was probably the first mistake. It's called cause and effect. I'm not against drug use, as long as it's not overdone, but when you have a kid in the house you should be taking care of, it get's a little different. I mean, a SWAT team not only showed up to their door (which doesn't just happen by itself btw), but they were apparently denied entry, so they felt the need to use a stun grenade.

I'm personally not a fan of most police, and like I said, I think you should be able to put whatever you want into your own body, but you can't blame the guy throwing the grenade here. Blame the parents, and blame the system for making the drugs illegal in the first place.

Also:

originally posted by: trollz142 IQ - COME AT ME BRO

165 IQ - GOML Actually weirdly enough, I took an IQ test in 1st grade and scored exactly 142, lol.

a reply to: CornShucker

Do you get more than 24 hours to a day? [Big Grin] I don't know how you read and post on so many varied topics with such clarity and insight and still have time for a Life!

On a more serious note, the video demonstration on your thread is big time spooky. For once, I'm speechless...

I'll let ya know on the first part when or if I get far enough to have my name on a by-line or formally published in a few years.



On the other side, I agree on how bad it's gotten. I think police have moved as a culture from a 'policing the neighborhood' and the neighborhood seeing them that way to working toward controlling neighborhoods, and certainly being seen that way now.

I don't actually see this in the area I live, but it's hard not to note the trends with how common some extreme things are becoming to read about across the nation. I'm happy, as someone living here, but as an American and not just a Missourian, I suppose bad anywhere is still bad.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000


for people putting down the parents of the child...they are relatives of the family who the house belongs to...they were staying there with their child because their house burned down.

hope the child will be okay....

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
I don't actually see this in the area I live, but it's hard not to note the trends with how common some extreme things are becoming to read about across the nation. I'm happy, as someone living here, but as an American and not just a Missourian, I suppose bad anywhere is still bad.

I may have a bit of a different perspective than some people in town because I never moved but about ten miles from where we grew up. The man that was our Chief of Police for many years has been my friend longer than I've known my wife. In fact, I can remember when he started his mail/home-study (I can't remember what they called them in the pre-'Net days) courses in security. He worked his way up from rent-a-cop stuff to CoP and retired with the respect of everyone that's either known him or came into contact with him for one reason or another because of "circumstances" as they were passing through our area.

You might remember me mentioning another (music) friend of mine getting tasered at one of the local convenience stores.

While the passing of the baton has been fairly recent (bear in mind what that means to someone who has seen 60 come and go...), the attitude on both sides of the subject are pretty apparent. The town had to let one of the "young guns" go, but as a dog lover I kinda feel like a member of a church that knows they've passed a bad minister/pastor/priest on to an unsuspecting community with no fair warning. Any man that beats a K-9 to death in an (allegedly) 'roid-fueled rage shouldn't be running around with a badge and all the toys/power that come with the job...

Lest anyone think I'm a "cop-hater", I paid a heavy price for refusing to jump on the bandwagon with everyone else hating on the former state policeman that killed my twin brother. Can't go into it, but I refuse to let the rest of my life be defined by that one night.

Knowing good cops was probably what made it possible to come out the other side without a bitter and hateful outlook on LE. Every profession has bad apples.

With all my heart, I try to gauge everyone on an individual basis without any preconceived notions, sure do hope reality doesn't force me to change that...

originally posted by: 7918465230

What's more, having a child in the house, and then having enough drugs present to warrant a full SWAT team to raid your house, was probably the first mistake.

The child was in the house because it's (and it's parents) house had burned down.
It's not clear if any drugs were on site.

It's called cause and effect.

It was covered earlier, the draconian drug laws is the actual cause.
Arresting someone for taking or selling a substance that someone wants to take
has been proven to stop the drug trade right? mmm no
I guess when they go to jail there'll be no drugs there either, they'll be rehabiliated
and society will happily take them back after they have done there sentence. MMM no.

originally posted by: Taggart
originally posted by: 7918465230

What's more, having a child in the house, and then having enough drugs present to warrant a full SWAT team to raid your house, was probably the first mistake.

The child was in the house because it's (and it's parents) house had burned down.
It's not clear if any drugs were on site.

It's called cause and effect.

It was covered earlier, the draconian drug laws is the actual cause.
Arresting someone for taking or selling a substance that someone wants to take
has been proven to stop the drug trade right? mmm no
I guess when they go to jail there'll be no drugs there either, they'll be rehabiliated
and society will happily take them back after they have done there sentence. MMM no.

If you would have read the rest of my post, you would have seen that I agree with you. I realize that their house burnt down (why did it burn down btw? Was is negligence?), but then they move their family to a (almost assuredly) known drug user/dealer's house with possible drugs on the premises, and if not, enough heat on the house to warrant at SWAT team, so something was obviously going down. They don't just order SWAT teams to every house (yet).

So I guess their first mistake was having a child without knowing how to properly care for it. The second mistake, of I'm sure many, that I can tell, was burning your house down. The third, and nearly fatal mistake, was moving in to a criminal's house with your child.

Like I said, I don't like the majority of people I meet, that includes cops especially (not saying they're all bad though), and I also support and believe that you should be able to legally put any substance into your body that you want (as long as it isn't hurting others), but I can't blame the trigger man on this one (grenade thrower). I blame the parents, the drug dealer/user, and the system that makes these drug illegal in the first place. It's just a giant clusterf**k of stupidity all around.

Ive got some bad news for all of you. Those cops, the ones that did this, don't care. I would almost bet they went back to the station and were giving each other high fives in the locker room. This is what they have been TRAINED to do. The days of down to earth, down home peace officer law enforcement are dead and gone.

What we have to fill the vacuum is paramilitary goons who in general are itching to use their weapons because from the top down over the last couple decades that is what they have been taught to do. It's a culture, a new way of "policing". It's do what you're told when you're told and how you're told or you will be shot, your dog will be shot, your family will be shot and even though a lawsuit COULD be brought, the taxpayers will just pick up the bill and the cops that did it will continue to go about their business as usual.

Without real fundamental change and soon, you may as well just get used to this kind of story because they sure aren't going away are they?

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: HawkeyeNation

It sounds like you are empathetic to the SWAT team...guessing maybe you know or are yourself in some type of law enforcement position. I understand that...the pressures involved in deadly situations, the stress on you and your family of possibly never coming home from work. It is a tough job, but people choose those career paths.

Everyone needs to be held accountable. When I screw up at work I risk losing my job. If I injure somebody at work I risk losing my job and going to jail. Every case needs to be looked at differently given the circumstances, but ignorant and obvious failures like tossing a stun grenade into a crib should be immediate termination with no pay. If the baby dies someone needs to go to prison. If not, what is preventing him or anyone else from thinking it is okay to continue to put peoples lives at risk?

No doubt at all. I never said what the SWAT team did was right. I have never argued that point. My point and my only point to this entire story has been the actions taken by the people solely responsible for this action to even take place. The choice the people took to do/deal illegal drugs is the main reason this action even happened. It's a different story, like someone mentioned before, if they do this to a wrong house or something to that extent. I've said 3 or 4 times already that I feel absolutely terrible for the small child. They are the innocent victim in this whole situation and I don't condone the extreme actions taken at times by law enforcement. The fact is, and you even stated this, is people have to take responsibility for their own actions. I absolutely stand by corrective action being taken to the SWAT team or members.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: trollz

Surely the police are trained in the damage a grenade woulod cause in an enclosed space. So it needs to be asked why would they need such heavy handed tactics on a home with children in it, unless one of both of the parents traded on the use of their kids as some kind of protection against the police?

However the little child was a complete innocent in this horrific situation, and I don't doubt the officer responsible will be hurting deep inside about this mistake. I hope the police compensate this little child and Social Services ensure this child is never put at risk in a similar situation again and is well looked after.

Such a sorry story. There must be a better way and if drugs are involved, surely its time to legalize the lot to do away with this type of policing and strategy (if used by parents)? We are so lenient about alcohol which is considered a 'respectable and acceptable' killer.

ehhhh so were the people who had their house raided! But hey I guess in your rather stuck up and sheltered mind it is quite alright for people to physically FORCE their views onto others... Do you know what that is called huh? Have any idea what that is?

It goes by a little name called... TERRORISM! Thats right! Using violence or coersion to get what you want is TERRORISM... So basically you blame the parents because they didn't yeild to the coersive terrorism... Go you buddy!

Social services? How about telling the TERRORISTS to stop terrorizing people? How about that!

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: HawkeyeNation
...

Everyone needs to be held accountable. When I screw up at work I risk losing my job. If I injure somebody at work I risk losing my job and going to jail. Every case needs to be looked at differently given the circumstances, but ignorant and obvious failures like tossing a stun grenade into a crib should be immediate termination with no pay. If the baby dies someone needs to go to prison. If not, what is preventing him or anyone else from thinking it is okay to continue to put peoples lives at risk?

I'd take that line of thought a step further. If justice should be blind, it should be blind, regardless of position. In other words, in situations like this especially, the fact that those individuals wore a badge should have no bearing in what happened. Sure, SWAT has certain legal immunities in regards to the use of force, but that is meant as a defensive measure, not offensive. Any security position, whether public or private, the objective is to de-escalate and discourage violence, not start it. Use of a stun grenade with a baby in the room is beyond excessive- it is a callous disregard for innocent life. That is to say, I feel in a case like this those immunities should have no bearing. This is attempted murder at least, or murder 2 if the child did not survive, with the victims age taken into consideration in the sentence. Badge or not, this is criminal.

originally posted by: 7918465230 It's just a giant clusterf**k of stupidity all around.

Well said!

Unless the guy is boarded up in his house all day everyday, I'm sure there would be plenty of opportunities to apprehend suspects in a safe and pragmatic manner. These no knock raids are part of the proxy war where the authorities terrorize the public, maiming and killing innocents in the name of a misguided anti-drug agenda.

What amount of a drug was sold by someone at the house. They acted like they were taking down a Colombian cartel.

I would hope a reasonable person would see this is getting out of hand. The person would leave his house at some point and could be captured but I imagine it's more fun to get to raid a house.

"Police work, it's not just walking a beat and tickets anymore"

a reply to: trollz>.. There should be a law on the books that if any innocent person( friend, relative, relation , bystander) is injured by accident because they're in the presence of the person being targeted, the intended target should be charged as an accessory to the crime. These cowardly SOB scum know they're being targeted either by the police or other criminals and still hang around family or walk the streets.
Enough of that. The police are absolutely culpable for this child's injuries and have to be held legally responsible. Fire the officer that fired the grenade and fire the officer who led the warrant and search. The monetary damages should come directly from the police pension fund. When current and retired officers see their current and future pensions and benefits cut due to acts of reckless stupidity like this, they'll start weeding out the problem officers and not cover for them. Don't take it out of the department's budget, or the municipality's budget or raise taxes on the community to cover the cost. If the local chief and judiciary don't make an example out of these clowns in blue and throw the book at them, well then the community has to stop supporting them and begin treating them as criminals themselves.

What happened is a serious and tragic mistake. Reading some of these thread posts you would imagine the SWAT team set out that day to murder. They didn't. Is this a case of gung-ho, testosterone fuelled action? Perhaps but clearly training and/or the defintion of reasonable force is askew and at fault. Whatever we think or whatever our perceptions and experiences of modern-day law enforcement is, they are still servants to the populous. It is up to us to remind them of that and giving in and saying they 'control' us doesn't wash with me. All this thread has done is serve as a tool to broadcast the story and a vessel for people to again rage against the machine — often in a hateful and unproductive manner.

I agree that a culture shift has seen the police (world wide) become 'militarised' and this is a worrying sign. However, I firmly believe that if we stand our ground and use, constructively, examples like this tragic story then we can effect change. It won't be easy, but what are we if we don't?

originally posted by: butcherguy
Cops can throw flash bangs into a toddler's face.

I can't buy M-80's to set off on the 4th of July.

Nice system we have here.

Come vist england on 4th of july you can buy all the fireworks you like, id join ya

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: butcherguy
Cops can throw flash bangs into a toddler's face.

I can't buy M-80's to set off on the 4th of July.

Nice system we have here.

Come vist england on 4th of july you can buy all the fireworks you like, id join ya

Oh the irony.