Stratified rock

a reply to: Another_Nut

yade yade yade...

That is most ridiculous explanation for rock sediments you got there, my friend... reminds me of this video...

a reply to: borntowatch

Here is a thought my friend
How about you take the initiative and study what creationists think in relation to your subject matter.
Spend some time considering it for awhile and try to understand their thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with then, just understand them

I have done this. Exhaustively, and in no hostile frame of mind, either. Here is a personal anecdote.

I was religious from a very young age. I had no doubts, even when I entered my teens. But I was always interested in science, too, and I encountered the theory of evolution early in life. It shocked and scared me in a way I think it does many religious folk when they first hear about it. Of course, I didn't understand it fully then — that came years later — but I could already see how it contradicted much of what I had learned at chapel and in divinity class. It was also awe-inspiring and a bit frightening in the vast catacombs of time it seemed to open up, filled with huge, terrifying monsters, men who were half ape (I told you I didn't understand it fully) and aeons upon aeons of slime. Nasty.

Meanwhile, I was reading plenty of Christian material on the subject too, all about the Piltdown man hoax and the missing link and gaps in the fossil record. All of which was sort of credible, to a kid.

But as I grew older and my scientific education progressed, it became harder and harder not to accept the evidence for evolution. And by then I was more inclined to accept it too, because I had other problems with religion — problems of ethics and claims of authority, quite apart from problems of belief (did a talking snake really feed Grandma an apple?) But I still wanted to believe — the thought of a Godless reality terrified me — and so I sought counsel from my school chaplain and, separately, from the young preacher who ran my neighbourhood Youth For Christ chapter.

They gave me two different answers. The chaplain of my Anglican (Episcopalian) school — he later became a bishop — told me that the theory of evolution was well founded (although, he added, there were 'many problems' with it) and that the creation story, like many other Biblical stories, should be read for their moral and spiritual content rather than be taken as factual. This I found somewhat unsatisfactory. The young pastor insisted that the Bible told the unerring truth, and gave me a couple of books that, he said, explained in detail what was wrong with the various 'proofs' of evolution. One of them was a very scholarly (looking) tome indeed. It dealt with the inaccuracies of radiological (not just radiocarbon) dating, described 'disproofs' of evolution such as the Paluxy dinosaur tracks, and much else of the same kind.

Reading this book, I began to feel strongly that the claims of evolution were probably true, and those of creationists false. I wasn't knowledgeable enough at the time to deconstruct the authors' arguments, but it was plain that they were trying too hard and were going too far — many of their conclusions were obviously false, not justified by the facts they presented in support of them.

I took it to my chaplain, who was rather dismissive of the whole thing. He seemed to think whether or not a Christian believed in evolution was irrelevant. The pastor came along too, and they had an argument about it. You must understand that I was in the midst of what you might call a spiritual crisis at the time, and the sight of these two men for whom I looked to for religious instruction wrangling away hotly with each other was quite disturbing. I did not know then that the two men of God represented two very different strains of Christianity — but that is another story.

The point of this one, borntowatch is that I've been there and done that. Most of us have. Not all would have been as religious as I was when I was a boy, but nearly all of us come from religious families, and many of us (though not, I suppose, those schooled in the US public system) have been educated in religious schools. We've had plenty of opportunity to hear and consider the creationist arguments. And if that were not enough, we see them repeated here on ATS every day.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Oh my god, the comments section in that video!! I can't tell if trolling or...

a reply to: Another_Nut

you REALLY should try this creationist " experiment " and see just how badly it fails

but in the meantime - what is the current creationist " explaination " for [ in no particular order ] :

salt beds - most specifically with underlying and overlyaing sedimentary rocks beds

porcelaneous bands - found between limestone beds

shale bands - ditto

coal seams - again between 2 sedimentary rock beds

bedding planes in sedimentary rocks

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: XxRagingxPandaxX

Or explain the Hawaiian volcanic chain of islands.

I once an argument with a creationist about that. I said that it was impossible to create the chain without millions of years of volcanism. He disagreed, but then said that he was going to look it up as he'd heard that a creationist scientist (now there's an oxymoron) had written something about it. He later sheepishly told me that the scientist had been unable to get around the fact that the amount of energy required to create the chain in the time of the 'flood' would have (cough cough) boiled the Pacific. And the Atlantic.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

I'm not sure how you would suggest this issue be tackled in the first place? It's not like the OP came out and denounced all young earth creationists as morons. He/she simply asked how they reconcile their beliefs with what we know about geology.

As a former young earth creationist myself, I think I have a unique enough perspective to say that my desire for dialog is in fact genuine, despite how you might have interpreted my responses to the points you mentioned above.

A fascinating response. Wasn't it YOU who professed to be a Christian and asked for dialog and also that the thread did not turn into "Christian bashing"? Umm, yes:

As a Christian, I would also like to hear from young earthers on this subject. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a Christian bashing extravaganza, because I genuinely want to know how young earth creationists can reconcile their beliefs with modern geology.

So once you get a response, albeit from a non-Christian, you wade in there with a machete calling the young earther's "ridiculous" and stating your FACTs in boldface. So what happened to the dialog? You're doing the exact opposite of what you profess and further, you're the pot calling the kettle black. Look at what YOU believe, at least in part:

+ Jesus was born of a virgin mother. "God" was the father.
+ Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, and raised the dead, among other miracles.
+ After being crucified he arose from the dead and walked around another few days, then he
+ Ascended to heaven.
+ The only way to salvation is THROUGH Jesus, who died for your sins.

And here you are calling the idea that the earth was made in 4004 BC "ridiculous"?? Compared to what? Accepting Jesus as your personal Savior? Jesus rising from the dead? Ascending to heaven?

The whole thing is ridiculous, start to finish. And for you to sit there and call a 'young earther' "ridiculous" while professing to be a Christian is just too funny. If you can't see that then I maintain you are as deluded as any 'young earther' alive. You are two peas in a pod yelling at each other.

If you didn't want this to turn into a "Christian bashing extravaganza," then WHY did you start the bashing?

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Yah, just relying on the text in the Bible for scientific explanation is as old as, well… the Bible.

Just so you know though, personally I still believe in the creation of life as opposed to evolution, just not like the scientific community or organized religious folk do.

I'm more into terraforming and Johnny Appleseed kind of thing.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Yah, just relying on the text in the Bible for scientific explanation is as old as, well… the Bible.

Just so you know though, personally I still believe in the creation of life as opposed to evolution, just not like the scientific community or organized religious folk do.

I'm more into terraforming and Johnny Appleseed kind of thing.

What got me was the boundless exuberance of the twit I was talking to, followed by the 'Crap, there's a massive snag' moment when he reported back on what that creationist had told him.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Ha, yah. Sounds like a "Galileo telescope" moment to me. The inquisition had to think on what he said, but still refused to look through the eye piece of his telescope.

a reply to: Xtrozero

the 6000 year number comes from some monk or something that added up all the ages of all the men in in the bible down the lineage, real scientific. Especuilly since the there are that many versions of the bible and they are all written by men anyway.

Why would i waste my time trying to explain 4.7 billion years of geology to someone who thinks the earth is 6000 years old according to some dude that added up the ages of some other dudes from a book written by some more dudes, then reinterpreted by even more dudes yet again. What a joke.

a reply to: schuyler

Believe what you like, Quite frankly I don't give a damn. The one thing I stated was a fact is that there are Christians who aren't young earthers. Do you deny this is a fact?

It seems to me like you are just looking for a fight, and you don't care where you get it from. You are playing the white knight for young earthers while simultaneously bashing Christianity. If there is anything absurd about this thread, it's your antagonism, but I've grown to expect it from you, regardless of the topic.

I have other reasons for my beliefs, none of which I care to share with you. The bible is often not the singular reason for a persons faith. Many people have had personal, spiritual experiences that have helped shape their belief structures. These are often experiences that are subjective and cannot be proven or quantified. If you find that ridiculous and worthy of ridicule, that is your prerogative, but at least have the balls to let the discussion playout instead of trying to pretend you have altruistic motives for your aggression.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: borntowatch

I get the answers and I become an atheist, you can win

If that's your thinking you already know the evolutionists are right.

Are you asking to be left alone with beliefs you already know are wrong? Then all you have to do is close your browser window and walk away.

Yeah I can close my browser but I have no answers.

Yours is another non answer

originally posted by: Another_Nut
a reply to: DeadSeraph
You have stumbled upon the two major assumptions used to discredit

Assumption 1 all radioactive decay occurs at a constant rate

Truth we dont know yet see

m.phys.org...
Annd

Assumption 2 the sediment layers were layed down over millions of years instead of all at once

The truth we dont know. It could have been either. Take a large 5 gallon bucket and many types of dirt and rocks. Fill the bucket 1/3 dirt 1/3 water and 1/3 air. Shake well . Wait.

Layers will form as heavier comtents settle faster.

So x and I have never looked into the wiegth composition of the layers, but idk if anyone else has either

What a clear and precise explanation
Simple and brilliant.

If anything its a little to simple for some of the great minds around here

Cool post

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: borntowatch

Here is a thought my friend
How about you take the initiative and study what creationists think in relation to your subject matter.
Spend some time considering it for awhile and try to understand their thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with then, just understand them

I have done this. Exhaustively, and in no hostile frame of mind, either. Here is a personal anecdote.


They gave me two different answers.

Well I have a simple answer
pray

I believe in 6 day creation, my best friend an Anglican minister believes in a God orchestrated evolution, another friend who is a biological scientist of some authority is also a God orchestrated evolutionist who refuses to justify his position. He accepts the glaring faults in evolution, but accepts evolution.

Great blokes and I love them (In a non sexual way)
See God didnt ask us to believe in creation to be His, he asked us to love each other.
God also said if a brother was weak then we should be weak with them to show love and not cause division

10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.…

So who is weak, me because my faith doesnt accept evolution or yours because it does

Its not about being right, its about accepting others in Christ by showing love.

I dont believe that sedimentation proves the earth is old. I think that can of water and dirt explains simply why.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: borntowatch

Here is a thought my friend
How about you take the initiative and study what creationists think in relation to your subject matter.
Spend some time considering it for awhile and try to understand their thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with then, just understand them

I have done this. Exhaustively, and in no hostile frame of mind, either. Here is a personal anecdote.


They gave me two different answers.

Well I have a simple answer
pray

I believe in 6 day creation, my best friend an Anglican minister believes in a God orchestrated evolution, another friend who is a biological scientist of some authority is also a God orchestrated evolutionist who refuses to justify his position. He accepts the glaring faults in evolution, but accepts evolution.

Great blokes and I love them (In a non sexual way)
See God didnt ask us to believe in creation to be His, he asked us to love each other.
God also said if a brother was weak then we should be weak with them to show love and not cause division

10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.…

So who is weak, me because my faith doesnt accept evolution or yours because it does

Its not about being right, its about accepting others in Christ by showing love.

I dont believe that sedimentation proves the earth is old. I think that can of water and dirt explains simply why.

Please explain the Hawaiian sea mounts chain.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: borntowatch

Here is a thought my friend
How about you take the initiative and study what creationists think in relation to your subject matter.
Spend some time considering it for awhile and try to understand their thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with then, just understand them

I have done this. Exhaustively, and in no hostile frame of mind, either. Here is a personal anecdote.


They gave me two different answers.

Well I have a simple answer
pray

I believe in 6 day creation, my best friend an Anglican minister believes in a God orchestrated evolution, another friend who is a biological scientist of some authority is also a God orchestrated evolutionist who refuses to justify his position. He accepts the glaring faults in evolution, but accepts evolution.

Great blokes and I love them (In a non sexual way)
See God didnt ask us to believe in creation to be His, he asked us to love each other.
God also said if a brother was weak then we should be weak with them to show love and not cause division

10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.…

So who is weak, me because my faith doesnt accept evolution or yours because it does

Its not about being right, its about accepting others in Christ by showing love.

I dont believe that sedimentation proves the earth is old. I think that can of water and dirt explains simply why.

Please explain the Hawaiian sea mounts chain.

It is composed of the Hawaiian ridge, consisting of the islands of the Hawaiian chain northwest to Kure Atoll, and the Emperor Seamounts: from wikipedia. You can search it on your own I am sure

Is this the place to discuss some atolls or Islands

Very broad question in the wrong thread

But you know that, why not do the right thing?

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: borntowatch

Here is a thought my friend
How about you take the initiative and study what creationists think in relation to your subject matter.
Spend some time considering it for awhile and try to understand their thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with then, just understand them

I have done this. Exhaustively, and in no hostile frame of mind, either. Here is a personal anecdote.


They gave me two different answers.

Well I have a simple answer
pray

I believe in 6 day creation, my best friend an Anglican minister believes in a God orchestrated evolution, another friend who is a biological scientist of some authority is also a God orchestrated evolutionist who refuses to justify his position. He accepts the glaring faults in evolution, but accepts evolution.

Great blokes and I love them (In a non sexual way)
See God didnt ask us to believe in creation to be His, he asked us to love each other.
God also said if a brother was weak then we should be weak with them to show love and not cause division

10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.…

So who is weak, me because my faith doesnt accept evolution or yours because it does

Its not about being right, its about accepting others in Christ by showing love.

I dont believe that sedimentation proves the earth is old. I think that can of water and dirt explains simply why.

Please explain the Hawaiian sea mounts chain.

It is composed of the Hawaiian ridge, consisting of the islands of the Hawaiian chain northwest to Kure Atoll, and the Emperor Seamounts: from wikipedia. You can search it on your own I am sure

Is this the place to discuss some atolls or Islands

Very broad question in the wrong thread

But you know that, why not do the right thing?

Well, given the fact that it was created slowly, atoll/island by atoll/island, it tends to act as visible proof that a) Young Earth Creationists don't know what they're talking about and b) that the world is extremely old.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

So you want to hijack this thread, for a discussion on islands, I know nothing about them.
Why not start a thread and question others, why not just see what the creationist point of view is
You have the world at your fingers

originally posted by: borntowatch
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

So you want to hijack this thread, for a discussion on islands, I know nothing about them.
Why not start a thread and question others, why not just see what the creationist point of view is
You have the world at your fingers

Erm, I'm not hijacking anything. I'm just pointing out that the creation of the Hawaiian seamount chain - which consists of layers upon layers of lava (stratified rock!) - disproves the 6-day creation myth. And the Flood myth. They prove that the Earth is millions - billions - of years old. It's not my fault if this jars with your viewpoint.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

Erm, I'm not hijacking anything. I'm just pointing out that the creation of the Hawaiian seamount chain - which consists of layers upon layers of lava (stratified rock!) - disproves the 6-day creation myth. And the Flood myth. They prove that the Earth is millions - billions - of years old. It's not my fault if this jars with your viewpoint.

I am sorry it doesnt jar anything.
You are welcome to believe that they are billions and trillions of years old if you want to.
My research on the matter suggests something more in line to my beliefs

Thats my research only recently
There is an alternative theory to yours.
Sorry