Renewing my evil god challenge

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Prezbo369
OBVIOUSLY? common sense? .... You don't get to berate anyone for a lack of common sense....

Yes I do get to. This fella says Jesus is God. He says the O.T. God is God. He refuses to admit that the two don't match up. Common sense says they aren't the same God.

But the NT God and Jesus totally match up. Never mind the fact that NT is based on OT and wouldn't exist without it.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Prezbo369
OBVIOUSLY? common sense? .... You don't get to berate anyone for a lack of common sense....

Yes I do get to. This fella says Jesus is God. He says the O.T. God is God. He refuses to admit that the two don't match up. Common sense says they aren't the same God.

You first need to show that you have common sense before admonishing anyone else, otherwise you don't have a foot to stand on...

a reply to: charles1952

You are saying that what God said to the people of Israel 1000 B.C. applies to the people of Indiana in 2014. God changes His instructions because the people are different, the society is different, the level of faith and understanding is different, but most important, the people of 2014 know about His Son, His words, His resurrection. God is facing an entirely different situation, and it only makes sense that His directions change. We need different lessons, than the Jews in the desert did.

Interesting you should say that. From what I understand, his instructions haven't been updated in 2,000 years. So according to you, he's slacking.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
But the NT God and Jesus totally match up.

Jesus = love, mercy, forgiveness.
OT 'God = orders to mass kill and rape.
They don't match. They aren't the same.

Never mind the fact that NT is based on OT and wouldn't exist without it.

Jesus teachings of mercy, forgiveness, compassion, and love can exist WITHOUT the Old Testament rhetoric. His message can stand on it's own. His followers may try to connect them and make them dependent ... but Jesus message can stand without it.

originally posted by: Prezbo369
You first need to show that you have common sense ...

My common sense is fine.
Oh ... and I"m out of troll-bit treats ... so no more for you.

a reply to: FlyersFan

And yet you cannot deny that the NT is based on the OT. The only thing that changed was God's personality, and clearly, they needed to fix that in order to cover the incongruency of scripture. In other words, the OT was compiled by a bunch of crappy politicians and the new wave of "spiritualists" decided to polish it up so it wasn't so bleeding obvious. A transparent tactic, from where I'm sitting.

There is no difference between the NT and the OT except for the need to make it less gruesome and violent, and the reason for that is a no-brainer. A less violent society is less likely to swallow violent scriptures, so they had to adjust for the progression of the human race.

reply to: FlyersFan

My common sense is fine.

You've accepted 2000 yr old claims and believe in a man-god that walked on water and rose from the dead like a zombie, and you probably proclaim to love it.

This is not common sense in any way sense or form, and yet here you are attempting to berate others on 'common sense'.......it's not fine, it's a joke...

Oh ... and I"m out of troll-bit treats ... so no more for you.

Yeah you have a pretty indefensible position, so I do kinda get why you'd flee....

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
And yet you cannot deny that the NT is based on the OT. The only thing that changed was God's personality, ....

Which is the whole point ... that Jesus message of love and forgiveness and 'turn the other cheek' is the exact opposite of the 'god of the Old Testament' who commissioned his followers to rape and mass murder. So there is no way that Jesus can be God ... and the 'God' of the Old Testament can be the same God.

See? It doesn't fit.

Jesus message is capable of standing on it's own. Christian denominations have linked it to needing the Old Testament in order to validate Jesus. But really, just reading the gospels and Jesus message straight from Him, He can stand on His own if people would let Him.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
And yet you cannot deny that the NT is based on the OT. The only thing that changed was God's personality, ....

Which is the whole point ... that Jesus message of love and forgiveness and 'turn the other cheek' is the exact opposite of the 'god of the Old Testament' who commissioned his followers to rape and mass murder. So there is no way that Jesus can be God ... and the 'God' of the Old Testament can be the same God.

See? It doesn't fit.

Jesus message is capable of standing on it's own. Christian denominations have linked it to needing the Old Testament in order to validate Jesus. But really, just reading the gospels and Jesus message straight from Him, He can stand on His own if people would let Him.

Let me see if I can help you understand where I'm coming from. Disclaimer: the following is purely hypothetical and intended for illustration purposes only.

Shortly after 9/11, George Bush issues a statement that the U.S. government was indeed responsible for the attacks on the Twin Towers. As a result, there is total anarchy and the United States of America is in serious danger of collapsing. Two years later, he then recants and says the U.S. had nothing to do with it. The people of the U.S. immediately calm down and say, "Okay, he says the initial press statement was complete BS and this one is the perfect truth. Obviously, we can believe him because there's no reason he'd lie to us about something like that." And just like that, everyone is once again back on board with the U.S. government. No more anarchy, because obviously, everyone is now cool. No one stops to question the blatant turnaround in the official story, strangely enough. Even though the whole thing happened right in front of their eyes and would, in any other circumstance, have only made the situation that much worse.

That's what I see as having happened between the NT and OT. There was a serious "Oh s**t" moment and a quick scramble to revise what would otherwise have been a Swiss cheese kind of Bible, and everyone just takes it with a pinch of salt and some healthy blind faith. Which, in my opinion, is complete and total BS and just reveals the whole game for the circus it is.

a reply to: FlyersFan
I'm confused by your stance about the ot/nt god. Using Abraham has an example for instance, the ot tells of his story and dealings with god. Later Jesus comes and states in John 8
-but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.

He makes references to the flood and to sodom as well a variety of ot things particularly the god of their fathers when speaking. Yet he isn't from the ot god? I'm not understanding how your getting to that point. From the example above either the ot is a complete fabrication or the same god of the ot and jesus are connected. Could you maybe clarify a little for me? If it's too off topic just send me a msg I would appreciate it.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
There was a serious "Oh s**t" moment and a quick scramble to revise what would otherwise have been a Swiss cheese kind of Bible, and everyone just takes it with a pinch of salt and some healthy blind faith. Which, in my opinion, is complete and total BS and just reveals the whole game for the circus it is.

OOOOH ... I think I follow what you are saying. Do you think that Jesus is made up? That He either didn't exist or that His words were changed somehow to make Him nicer? That kind of thing?

Lemme' put it this way from what I see ... assuming Jesus words in the N.T. are actually His words (because that's what the OP believes and that's why he made this thread) ... Jesus words don't match the Old Testament god. They come across as two very different Gods.

Jesus = loving and merciful.
OT God = mass killings and rape.

I don't know if I buy that the N.T. people reinvented Jesus and made him into a nice God. Maybe. But back then people were still really into the hard core Old Testament laws and the bloody 'eye for an eye' thing. They didn't like the kind Jesus. They wanted a military messiah like Joshua. I don't think they had evolved but that Jesus teachings helped evolve them. I think the teachings came before the evolution. That's what I get from reading history. But you are free to disagree, of course.

a reply to: drivers1492

Jesus referenced time periods and people to make examples .... he didn't confirm their stories. His reference to Noah was just a reference to a certain timeframe and not a statement that the story is actually true as written. If Jesus had done that, then no one could be Christian because it's been proven that Noahs Ark didn't happen. Jesus referenced Abraham saying Abraham knew there would be a messiah and that Abraham was glad about it. But that doesn't confirm that Abraham trying to kill his son was done on orders from God.

A lot of the O.T. is fabrication. Tons of it. We know that Genesis didn't happen. Adam and Eve didn't happen. Noahs Ark and the world wide flood didn't happen. Exodus didn't happen the way the bible says.

It's been discussed a lot in the religion forum. Over and over ... it's all in there ....

Jesus isn't anything like the 'god' of the Old Testament. He may have referenced some people and events from the Old Testament, but that's not a statement that the Old Testament is literal truth from end to end, and it's not a statement that all the things the prophets claimed had come from God are truly from God. Prophets are fallible human beings. They screw things up ...

a reply to: FlyersFan

But this messiah that Abraham knew was coming would be from god correct? If he knew that why would he continue after the wrong god? It would seem to me at least if he knew that this messiah was coming from god he would be aware that this individual would be coming from a different god? Thats the confusion I'm having with what your saying. Since we have no reference from Jesus saying any of the ot people were looking at the wrong deity I'm not following the line of thought(outside of the drastic differences in message ot/nt of course).

a reply to: FlyersFan

OOOOH ... I think I follow what you are saying. Do you think that Jesus is made up? That He either didn't exist or that His words were changed somehow to make Him nicer? That kind of thing?

No. Not Jesus. I don't know what to think about it except that for a hypothetical fictional character, he sounds like a pretty nice guy. No, I'm saying that's what happened to Yahuwah of the OT. And then the new version was labeled the NT. Because of plot holes and stuff. I've already explained it, just swap out the 9/11 metaphors accordingly.

I can't make this any clearer without resorting to pop up books and puppets.

originally posted by: drivers1492
Since we have no reference from Jesus saying any of the ot people were looking at the wrong deity ...

Do you really think He would be able to say that and have anyone listen to his message? Do you think he could say out loud that Moses shouldn't have ordered sex slaves for his soldiers? Do you think they would have let Jesus live? Those people were up to their eyeballs in the glory of their OT God ... his mass killings and rapes and glory ...

Jesus did things like .... 'let him without sin cast the first stone'. In that way, he directly contradicted the Pharisees and the old laws, but he didn't come out and directly say it. If he had come out and said directly 'dont follow the old laws', then he would have been stoned on the spot.

Look at how He taught ... and look at what He said ... Love and mercy and forgiveness vs 'eye for an eye' and rape and mass murder. Jesus and the OT God are opposites.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
I'm saying that's what happened to Yahuwah of the OT. And then the new version was labeled the NT.

You think they backfilled the story? I think so. But I"m not seeing the personalities of the OT god and Jesus meshing.

I can't make this any clearer without resorting to pop up books and puppets.

That might be helpful. I really am trying to follow what you are saying. Give me some time to let this sink in and think about it. Maybe a lightbulb will pop in over my head and I'll get what you are saying ....

a reply to: FlyersFan
Seems very odd to me. Thanks for the replies. If your correct I wonder where god was all the years before Jesus.

originally posted by: drivers1492
If your correct I wonder where god was all the years before Jesus.

Lots of people wonder where God is all these years SINCE jesus.

I think you see God sometimes in the OT .... but every utterance of the prophets that 'god said to go kill and rape' ... that just doesn't seem to fit. That's all.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Okay .... lets see if I figured it out ....

Either ... you are saying that both the OT God and the NT God (Jesus) are both invented so they go together just fine because it's all invented by humans for what is needed at the time period ...

OR .... you are saying that the GOD of the OT is the real God .. nasty and uncaring and mean ... and that Jesus was probably just as bad but, as time went on, his story rewritten to soften it up so people would accept it.

Am I getting there? I"m really trying to see what you are saying.

When the 10 Commandments state clearly "No Graven Images Or Likeness" & "No False Idols"...
Or When Jesus said clearly "My God, Your God..." & " My Father Is Greater Than I..."...
Why do people think Jesus was God Incarnate?

That's what I've never got about Christianity, & I was raised Catholic...
The hypocritical Trinity drove me away from the religion!!!


Is that not a graven image or likeness & Idolatry in the OPer's avatar???



Confusing religion to say the least!!!



Peace everybody!!!

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Okay .... lets see if I figured it out ....

Either ... you are saying that both the OT God and the NT God (Jesus) are both invented so they go together just fine because it's all invented by humans for what is needed at the time period ...

OR .... you are saying that the GOD of the OT is the real God .. nasty and uncaring and mean ... and that Jesus was probably just as bad but, as time went on, his story rewritten to soften it up so people would accept it.

Am I getting there? I"m really trying to see what you are saying.

Thank you for at least trying. It's the first one. I'm not talking about Jesus though. That's why they changed it, because the OT was too blatantly incongruent with Jesus' teachings. They had to soften it somewhat.