China Deploys 3 type 094 Ballistic Missile Boats to Hainan Island.

man a lot of ignorance in this thread. Im not coming from a cocky stand point but a realistic one. Chinas subs are late 1970 tech. We have A LOT of experience dealing with that level of technology. We are several magnitudes beyond what they are deploying. See what the US likes to do with their 15 year advance in military technology is lead dumb assed enemies down the wrong path. Hey lets build a Typhoon class submarine that will teach the americans. mean while we have every choke point and harbor patrolled and mined with state of the art drone subs. We own the ball and the bat and no they aren't going to get a chance to swing. Its checkmate whenever we decide. Its our game especially the navy and we set the terms. Its not like we've been exactly where the chinese ( or anybody else) were with their navy and air force 30+ years ago and have already thought about all the new exciting possibilities that vintage era stuff comes with ... oh wait yes, yes we have. It's a lot like a parent looking down on an excited but precocious teenager. But when/ if the SHTF the joke will be on them..

Not that I know , but yet I do Know, that we have stuff decades ahead of anybody. And I mean EVERYBODY. Money buys that. Old school money. Chinas got money now but not when it mattered and the arms race was in full swing. They are behind the curve now because the money bought the companies that are behind this new checkmate tech and they are all now western interests and owned. And if they think their army of college flunky hackers and military can get to the juiciest bits of the USA's military, then they underestimate the world class and leading experties that are in charge of this forefront of US military corporations and their technologies. The op sec is so secure that even the president of the US, who us in a much better position than any chinese hacker to know, probably doesn't know the full extent of the abilities of the USA's top military tech firms.

Its like a bunch of trust fund frat boys showing up at some old school gangsters party and thinking they are bad ass with their new cars, fancy vodka and slingshots. Meanwhile the host of the party has an AK, A heavy duty truck with lifters that gets the job done and a bunch of people soaring on that 150 proof. Sorry if the veterans aren't impressed.

Sure chinas hard, real hard. Sorry if they are late to the party but the advantage is almost solely in USA's hands. Its about where we've been what we've done (which the public nor the world will ever know about) that sets the US ahead. And even if they did get the tech its not like those limped noodled wannabe up and comers have any experience and knowledge of how to get the job done. I mean, I can put a top of the line fishing poll with flourocarbon leaders the best rigs and bait in a novices hand and place cold hard cash down that they still wont catch S@*$#!!!! Chinas a lot like that.

I was off looking some things up on this and found a couple items to add. RT recently reported that 5 Type 94's would give China blue water patrol capability. Continuous patrols, I mean.

“The three JIN [ballistic missile submarines] currently in service would be insufficient to maintain a constant at-sea presence for extended periods of time, but if the PLA Navy builds five units as some sources suggest, a continuous peacetime presence may become a viable option for the PLAN,” Karotkin noted.

Karotkin explained in his report that a number of factors have forced China to modernize its Navy, which now has more than 60 submarines, 55 medium and large amphibious ships, roughly 77 principal surface ships, and nearly 100 other small craft.

Source

Well.....

Previous satellite imagery available in Google Earth from February 2013 showed a Type 094 Jin Class SSBN and a Type 093 SSN variant at the fitting out pier of China’s Bohai shipyard No. 431. A new imagery update would suggest that those submarines had finished construction while another Type 094, measuring approximately 136 meters, had been brought out from the fabrication shop.

If confirmed, this would be the fifth Type 094 hull observed on satellite imagery.

Source: Is This China’s 5th Type 094 SSBN Under Construction?

No one can say they aren't quite busy over there. They may soon have their 24/7 blue water patrol ability.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: Philippines

I'd be willing to bet the Chinese actually know a few things about Nuclear physics and proper vessel construction. Umm.. The Chinese were making ships to make Europe's 'Ships of the Line' look like toys in a bathtub by size and crew strength, well before America was a place to give a name

I'll bet these are even very capable and very effective weapons platforms, just as the American military experts and men who will have to face them in combat (should it ever get there) have said they are.

I'll never understand the need to belittle our adversaries as if they are simple minded backward dolts just because they happen to be OUR adversary. China stopped being an agrarian economy built on farmers quite some time ago.

We'd be as quickly seeing seeing them talked UP and made to look very powerful if they were allies with us against some other common threat.

First, I don't consider China "my" adversary, and in history they were once allies of the USA, but I'm sure you know that

China also has some seriously smart people, I agree. However, they are relatively new in the nuclear power industry compared to the rest of the world. Their first nuclear power plant, the Qinshan, went online at the end of 1991.

However, when it comes to the Chinese military and submarines, there are some issues.. and I'm sure other countries had them as well decades ago.

Nuclear Submarine Leak

A leak of radioactive material was detected at a submarine base near the Chinese port city of Dalian in northern China, the U.S.-based Chinese website Boxun reported over the weekend.

70 Die in China Submarine Accident
(I don't think this sub was nuclear though)

An accident on board a Chinese conventional submarine has killed all of its 70 officers and crew, the official Xinhua news agency said today.

The accident, which occurred in Chinese territorial waters in recent days, was caused by mechanical problems during training, Xinhua said but gave no further details or a date.

The first Xia Class 092 nuclear submarine from China had significant problems.

Another site on the Xia Class says:

Construction of both boat and intended missile system was a catalogue of disasters. The Xia class is slow, noisy and it's reactor is unreliable.

... Which leads to the Jin Class type 094 nuclear submarine, the successor of the 092.

So now we're here with the second generation of China's nuclear submarines after a miserable first generation. And now it seems like this is the first time in history for China to send out some nuclear subs as a deterrent.

It was reported that the Type 094 class boats are as noisy as Soviet submarines of the 70s.

Some sources claim that these Chinese ballistic missile submarines were plagued with various problems and design flaws. By 2013 Jin class boats were never sent on deterrent patrol missions.

Source

a reply to: Philippines

That's surprising as the Philippines were in the headlines just earlier this month regarding issues and problems with Beijing.

The Philippines, which has its own fresh dispute with China this week after Philippine Coast Guard officials arrested someone they said was an illegal Chinese fisherman, will seek to put maritime disputes at the heart of the ASEAN confab and seek progress on a code of conduct that could give countries a peaceful way to resolve territorial disputes.

In response, Chinese state-controlled media attacked the Philippines for trying to "instigate tension" in the region by promising to bring up maritime disputes at the annual ASEAN summit.

Source (Spacing added)

It is good to see the Philippines work toward new processes to try and handle it peacefully though. I hope it carries influence into the future.

This is an interview with a French journalist appearing in Vietnam a few days ago.

Did China’s move surprise you?

Completely not, because we are witnessing the emergence of nationalism in China. China’s territorial disputes with its neighbours are no longer new to the world, but its provocative behaviour towards the Philippines and now Vietnam.

Do you think people from other ASEAN countries are sceptical about China’s move?

I think they certainly are, because of the emergence of nationalism in China. To date, the Philippines have been the strongest protesters. It is a bit complicated in other countries due to political and economic relations in the past and at present, but all in all doubts are growing.

Source

On a personal level, China certainly isn't my adversary. I have nothing personal against the Chinese in the least, beyond disgust at some of what their government has done. We have Chinese members who would agree with that though. If that was enough to feel harsh? I'd pretty much hate every nation but maybe Iceland. Our nations are adversaries (Not enemies) with China in economics at the least and it seems to be building toward more. Hopefully not.

It's something to watch, anyway.

As far as the submarines...How high tech does a 7,000km SLBM with MIRV's have to be? Unlike many, China does test fire their missiles for the world to see they work.

Folks seem to think of China as backward for how short a time they've been in some areas..but they've very effectively stolen/espionage'd their way past the Research and Development of much of the world on those systems they need most. No need reinventing the wheel, and they haven't. It has sure shortcut time though.

It's said that the Chinese are trying to build one nuclear missile per week. I think the U.S and Russia should put aside their differences in ideologies and force the Chinese's leaders to resign, because it's obvious what their intention is. You have two countries with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world, what if you add a 3rd one, one who is willing to sacrifice hundred of million(probably up to 1 billion) of lives to achieve their goal?

The Chinese don't view human lives the same way the West does, and that is an incredibly dangerous opponent. Once they have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world(or really just the U.S, E.U and Russia), then here is one possible scenario: the Chinese take over all of the small countries, knowing that the U.S won't risk their lives for these countries, leaving the U.S, the E.U, and Russia. Then they take over those countries' resources, enrich more uranium and spread their nuclear weapons all over, now depending on how much loyalty the U.S feels toward the E.U, they will try to take over the E.U, knowing again that the U.S might not risk their lives for the E.U. This leaves 3 countries left, at this point, it's hard to say what will happen. I think the Chinese's nuclear arsenal will be the most difficult to maintain, so they will probably go down first, however, they will try to fire off all the nukes before that happens, and I guess that's how it all ends.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I think it's pretty pointless to try to reason with the Chinese right now. Can you try to change the Joker's behavior, because right now, that's what they are. The Chinese are Nazis with nukes, always keep that in mind.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR


So the chinese got themselves a early 1970 era tech submarine. Good job china ... But it's 2014 and you guys still got a long way to go with your sub tech. Meanwhile all three of those subs have probably been stalked and thoroughly analyzed by us naval assets since they've left port. Probably under hauled all of them.

What they have are hidden and mobile nuclear launch platforms that can launch 36 nuclear warheads each within range of the continental USA from Chinese territory. It's like Topols driving around the Siberian tundra.

As for your other comments about so-called naval superiority for the Americans... Well, you fail to take in a multitude of factors, main one being geography (which is key to all military strategy).

China is only interested in regional hegemony and thus any naval engagement between China and the USA will take place in the SE Asian ocean. How well will your navy fare when Chinese ballistic missiles are able to pound American naval yards around their country? Or when your naval armadas get in range of land-based anti-ship missiles? Or the fact that any naval engagement will be in range of virtually every combat aircraft China has?

And it's not very smart to underestimate the Chinese navy either. They've developed it around the principle of fast-attack anti-ship, not large battleships and carriers and destroyer formations designed to attack inland targets. The greatest weakness of any naval armada will be logistics and the ammo the navy has for combat is only as much as they can load onto a ship. Within China's region, China can keep sending in waves of assaults on armadas while hunting down supply ships.

And the nightmare scenario would be if North Korea aids against the American attack by using its many attack subs to hunt down logistical ships.

The advantage that the USA has is its military alliance with South Korea and Japan, but it would be practically WWIII if they jumped in. If a major war should break out involving the US fighting for control over a geostrategic region, then wars would break out elsewhere where the USA cannot afford to continue pushing resources.

originally posted by: Slickinfinity
I think war between the west and China is very unlikely and assume their beefing up of naval power is a means to secure their territorial claims in the region. I really think China will play chess well in the coming years and the USA will not intervene but I could be wrong and they very well might have bigger plans for the future. If that's the case I'd hope the USA has as good of classified military tech as I assume they do coupled with their enormous military budget would probably give the Chinese a beating in open war but the aspect of MAD really negates that possibility imo.

I am not pro-USA at all but I do respect their ability to project firepower globally and have a lot of experience doing so.

Well you should be pro U. S. A., Because of us you are still free. We are great allies but the bottom line is you would have kissed it all good bye a long time ago if it had not been for us. I love Canada, they are great allies and friends. China and Russia would have to combine to defeat us.

China has bigger things on their minds. They are quickly building their armed forces. But in reality they are setting their goals much higher. They are already making plans to mine the moon and are already looking toward to Mars. They are gearing up for new technology much of which will come from space and the tech they are finding on the moon.

You won't find much about this on the net. It is rumors and speculation and some info that gets out thru friends. But you will see them move quite quickly in certain areas. Much is from tech they have stolen from us. They will quickly continue their March into space and beyond. If there is a war it will be over space and mining the moon cus they are going after it. It has the potential to change the world. Read about helium three and other exotic metals and compounds they have found both in space and on the moon.

But, right now folks Russia holds the keys to the rocket engines and space and even whether some of our military stuff gets into space. How stupid is that, without their rockets we are grounded. Oh that makes me sick to my stomach.

The Bot

So China joins the Ballistic missile submarine club:

France Le Triomphant class - 4 in service

India Arihant class-INS Arihant 1 in service. 2nd to launch in 2015, total 4 to be constructed

China Type 092 - 1 in service, 1 lost Type 094 - 5 in service out of 6 planned

Russia Borei class - 1 active, 2 are in trials 7 under development in Sevmash.[7][8] Typhoon class - 1 in service Delta III and Delta IV classes - 3 Delta III class in service, 6 Delta IV class in service

United Kingdom Vanguard class - 4 in service

United States Ohio class - 18 in service (of which 4 have been converted into cruise missile submarines)Text

Link

This may not necessarily be a bad thing. Deterrence or mutually assured destruction (MAD) has prevented a global war for 69 years now.

a reply to: ionwind

Well, if people knew for real how many times we have been to the brink no one would feel this way. We have spun up many more times than people know about. Plus, if they really knew how lax security has been across all the ex Russia countries and even in Russia they would lose their minds.

Sad part despite numerous sixty minutes episodes things are not much better. It cost more money to store and guard and destroy some of the nasty stuff these countries can't afford it.

Then you have to talk about all the stuff left in places like labia, Syria, etc. Course that should have been Labia, lol, no but I am surprised an airliner full have people have not been downed by one of the many anti-aircraft man pack missiles that disappeared.

Here is a scary thought, China relaxes one child laws. So in year we have billion more Chinese. They are quickly going to consume more of everything and need more of everything. This while they pump massive amounts of pollution in the air, so much so you can travel across the country on train and never see the sun.

That is really scary lol....

The Bot

a reply to: dlbott

No offence but I have a different opinion on "lax" nuclear security.

I have yet to see any real report detailing lost Russian nukes, aside from sunk subs. I'm not saying their aren't any such reports, or that Russian/Soviet security is perfect. But I have seen a few Tom Clancy movies and played some Call of Duty games featuring radicals taking Russian nukes. Just saying.

And personally, I find American nuclear security to be just as questionable as the Russians. Here's four things that are true about American nuclear forces:

- they used to only use default zero codes for enabling launches. There were memos posted on walls in the silo control rooms detailing this, incase the crews forgot.
- Many nuclear officers, ranging beyond a hundred, having been cited recently for failing monthly competency examinations and drills.
- recent recent years there have been scandals involving live warheads deployed on aircraft such as B-52s, and when busted the media is told that it was an honest mistake.
- Nuclear commanders, specifically the guys with the buttons, are disciplined under "end of times" beliefs, ie. fundamental religious beliefs that launching a nuke will bring about the apocalypse, so think twice.

What I see in the USA is a serious potential for a radical military wing, disenfranchised with the government, to take nukes into their own hands and use them to their own ends. While I have no evidence of this, I think that there will be a breaking point where some rogue officers believe more in their country than government and nukes will be the cards in their hands.

There was a good representation of this scenario in the TV show "Seven Days" (yeah I know it's TV, but still). If I recall correctly, a general goes rogue with his forces and they acquire nukes, bunkering down in a base while threatening the president to step down for his un-American policies.

a reply to: Vovin

Although You and I disagree on the sophistication and superiority of the US's Submarine fleet. I completely agree with your last post.

Richard Marcinko had a lot of interesting thing to say about US nuclear security. He was able several times to simply walk onto Nuclear weapon depots and get right up to the warheads. Had mentioned that he could have easily stolen them if he had wanted. Disturbingly even Dennis Chalker (another Red Cell plank owner) wrote about how easy it was for them to steal a nuke if needed and how they easily broke into the Seal Beach Nuclear Armory (scarily close to Los Angeles where I live) by simply parking their car on the Pacific Coast Highway and walking into the Armory via the bird sanctuary next to it. Was so easy that they not only video taped the whole thing but also decided to light off M80's to get the guards attention after it was clear they could have robbed them blind.

So, I agree nuclear security is not as secure as we all think. But I also feel that Russia probably has the same problems with their security regarding.

Heres one stupid thing both the americans and russians did during the cold war. Hide small portable nukes in hidden cashes around europe to be used by SF unites if called to do so. Imagine if one of those sites was ever discovered and compromised. What if thats already happened before? I mean these are sights where they stash a nuke then leave it unattended for months, years hoping no one discovers them while they are away. Thats nuts in my opinion. Not something I would do. But thats just me.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

You and I both know there's portable nukes stashed elsewhere than just Europe.

But like I said, governments controlling nukes appears to be effective enough, since owning nukes is more of a diplomatic card than a (offensive) military threat. The greatest risk I see are rogue military units, acquiring nukes and capable of using them, particularly against their own government.

Another risk factor could be transnational corporations, or non-government organization (like a militia faction that doesn't adhere to any geopolitical borders), acquiring or even developing nukes. They could deploy them virtually anywhere in the world.

Imagine a giant oil company with a mercenary army and nuclear weapons. If they say "we're taking over your oil fields", what would you do as a political leader?

By the end of the decade, China will probably have more than anything that the America can handle. Their industrial capacity is what frightens me. Some may argue quantity over quality, but when it comes to expendables, quantity always wins.

Too bad, a 10 cents pencil still writes better and has many more uses than a million $ pen in many ways such as using the pencil's shaving to light a fire.

a reply to: mypan

China has a long way to go to even come close to that point. Even if they can build the ships, and missiles, and planes, you need the doctrine to use them. They are just now starting to become a blue water navy, and have a long way to go before they are a true force to be reckoned with. A lot more than 5 or 6 years. It took the other major navies of the world years to get their doctrines worked out to something that works for them.

a reply to: Zaphod58


Well, 20 years ago, I'd probably think along that line too but they're a lot closer to home than any of us would like to believe.

We also have to take into consideration the leaps and bounds of their technological knowhows of today's world. What may have taken the West 50 years to perfect might only takes them 5 years nowadays and now with Russia aligning with them, hard not to see that they are on a roll.

a reply to: mypan

It doesn't matter though. Knowing how the tech works is step 1. Knowing how to implement it effectively, and how best to use it is like step 4. You don't just suddenly go from a regional force to a world power in a few short years, barring a war that devastates pretty much everyone else. You need time to learn your equipment, and the ins and outs of it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: mypan

China has a long way to go to even come close to that point. Even if they can build the ships, and missiles, and planes, you need the doctrine to use them. They are just now starting to become a blue water navy, and have a long way to go before they are a true force to be reckoned with. A lot more than 5 or 6 years. It took the other major navies of the world years to get their doctrines worked out to something that works for them.

What matters though, is who owns the mode of production. This is where the power lays. China is not only building everything they own, but they produce products that other countries consume. This is especially true for the USA, which allowed so much of its industry to move production to China.

In strategic terms, the USA would have a very gruelling war with China. The American homeland's remaining production lines of consumer goods would face some level of conversion into military production facilities (of various sorts). The American homeland would face a considerable transformation into a militarized state in order to quickly reinforce the production and maintenance of its military. The main consequence would probably be a significant police state as well, to control the population when guns are more easily found on the market than bread.

I'm quite sure that the Chinese have understood these details long before accepting American investment in their homeland.