What is evolution, not what some think

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Starbucks
lactose intolerance means you can not drink mother milk hence death

Show me evidence of babies being born this way. You're beyond full of it. I wouldn't rule it out that it could possibly happen on occasion but the fact of the matter is that ALL humans are born with the enzyme that allows for milk to be digested. This enzyme gradually disappears and generally by puberty is entirely gone. The mutation found primarily in people with significant European genetics has developed a mutation for lactase persistence which simply put means the enzyme continues to be active well into or for the duration of your adult life. The onus is upon YOU to cite a source that attests to your claims. But youre too busy copying and pasting the same post in multiple threads to be bothered to check sources.

lactose intolerance means you can not drink mother milk hence death.
the original mutation (before it was diluted by marriage with people who dont have it) meant sure death for infants lose the milk by diarrhea.

the current lactose intolerance is but 20% of the original muation.
the people of the original mutation had to feed their infants on blood hence the vampires.
the lactose intolerance mutation appeared 5000 years ago in central asia in a woman (katia the kat woman Katura or Katusha the mother of russians or mother russia).

how did it happen in neanderthal too.
what is the probability that 50 miutations happened in a gene of same area?
one in gadzillion.
same for blue eye mutation happened in central asia in europpean ancestors.
red hair red skin happened in Melanesians (blonde melanesians) who are the ancestors of europpeans, both of haplogroup k.
yet again these two more mutations (each composed of several mutations in the same gene on same chromosomes)
happeneing in both neanderthals and europpeans (or haplogroup K , frensh Han and Melanesians), what is the mathematical probabilty for that??
one in gadzillion gadzillion generations (25 gadzillion gadzillion years ie before the big bang by gadzillion and a half gadzillion years!)

unless both nean and europpeans (or haplogroup K) were the same people (red hair red skin blue eyes lactose intolerant)

a reply to: Starbucks

the probabilities of this occurring in Neanderthal is apparently much higher than the odds of you citing a valid source for any of your claims. Again, do some basic research. Lactose intolerance is NOT the mutation. Lactase persistence IS. As for the red hair, a different gene codes for it in HNS than in HSS

actually lactose tolerance is essential for mammals who feed their babies milk. chicken don't feed their chicks milk!

lactose intolrance mutated gene is multiple mutations on several blocks on the gene that is hundreds of blocks.

mutation is random.

for exact mutations (random!) to happen on exact blocks in the same gene in the same chromosome which is a column made of a billion block.
for this to happen independently on two branches of the most recent common ancestor of neanderthal and humans 700 000 years ago (25 thousand generations only) is astronomical unless if the two were same and not independent of each other

a reply to: anafanil

Howdy,

I see you are new here, and as such, I'll gladly actually have a discussion with you if you'd like to.

It's funny that you should mention lactose "intolerance" as a negative mutation. See, in the field of developmental biology, I do believe lactose tolerance is a trait seen in most mammalian young, but one that is lost in most adults of the species. This means that specific gene(s) that allow(s) young to digest milk, while making adults of the species incapable of it. Now, it's a neat evolutionary process that actually allowed for adult humans to continue drinking milk. (Truth be told, I'm more familiar with the process than the genetics of lactose tolerance...)
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm not a biologist, so take this as a general explantion, please. The neat thing is that through mutation, some humans (those with lactose tolerance) have retained their childhood ability to consume milk. That's all it takes, one "malfunction" (really two, I suppose, but I'm generalizing) that allows that gene(/those genes) which allows for lactose tolerance to continue working into adulthood. This mutation isn't even beneficial until humans decide to use milk as a food source. When humans actually enter into a society that uses milk as a food source (when humans began raising cows, goats, whatever else), then the mutation is beneficial and will likely spread in that population. In fact, are you aware that lactose tolerance is actually known as lactase persistence in adult humans?
en.wikipedia.org...

Neoteny is one of the ways that organisms speciate, and is quite important in some evolutionary paths. Evolution is a confusing topic, with many different winding roads and animals traveling on them all at all times... I wouldn't be surprised if anyone were confused by it, as I certainly often am (and surely even the experts are, sometimes).

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

The evolution will not be televised

I thought milk intolerance is not beneficial for mammals whose main (evolution) was to drink milk from their mothers , that is why they are called mammals (mammals glands AKA breast milk)

if milk intolerance that cauuse diarrhea and loss of the food into waste, how did mammals with this dysfuntion managed to overcome dinosours to take over earth.

my understanding is the current milk intolerance mutation is highley diluted (20% )the mere ghost of it when it was original 100% when it must been surely deadly to the offsprings and death of species.
but it is confirmed the original started in female chromosomes in a woman in central asia 5000 years ago, so it can not possibly the same mutation that hit all mammals according to your ref?

a reply to: anafanil

Lactose intolerance typically comes after the breastfeeding stage. That's why historically it's not so much an issue, only when humans started drinking dairy milk would it become an issue, hence why lactose intolerance is lower in populations with a history of dairy feeding and higher in those without.

there ar many causes of lactose intolerance and many genetic deficiencies. the congenital one found in Dinosovians is the one found in europpeans

a reply to: anafanil

Congenital lactose intolerance is very rare.

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." ~ paleontologist T.L. Moor

a reply to: Murgatroid

Dishonest Creationist Tactics= Bad Religion
You have been called out about quote mining before.
Why do you keep doing it? It certainly does not help your cause.

posted by solomons path in that thread:

T.L. Moor was not a paleontologist and his name is actually L.T. More (Louis T.) . . . He was a physicist and Newton biographer. You are quote mining from some creationist source and I can prove it . . . because we both know you cannot cite the original source of that quote. Not to mention, that quote is from 1925 when paleontology was still, somewhat, in it's infancy and we had not nearly the amount or type of finds (data/evidence) that we do today. He also fully accepted evolution as a working hypothesis, at the time. . Louis T. More (1870-1944), a physicist and dean at the University of Cincinnati who had just written a book, The Dogma of Evolution (1925), protesting the extension of evolution from biology to philosophy, replied that he accepted evolution as a working hypothesis.[2] . . .

originally posted by: anafanil
I thought milk intolerance is not beneficial for mammals whose main (evolution) was to drink milk from their mothers , that is why they are called mammals (mammals glands AKA breast milk)

It's not beneficial for pre adolescent mammals to be unable to process milk. Luckily for them all mammals are born with the ability to produce the enzyme that allows them to ingest their mothers milk. Just an FYI, breasts are mammary glands not mammals glands.

if milk intolerance that cauuse diarrhea and loss of the food into waste, how did mammals with this dysfuntion managed to overcome dinosours to take over earth.

Because all mammals in their infancy are able to produce the enzyme that enables them to ingest milk products. Lactose intolerance, except in a very minuscule number of people, exists only in adults.

my understanding is the current milk intolerance mutation is highley diluted (20% )the mere ghost of it when it was original 100% when it must been surely deadly to the offsprings and death of species.
but it is confirmed the original started in female chromosomes in a woman in central asia 5000 years ago, so it can not possibly the same mutation that hit all mammals according to your ref?

This has been gone over already multiple times. All mammals are born with the enzyme that allows them to ingest milk. Once the mammal in question reaches adolescence they lose that enzyme. The actual mutation on that gene allows for Lactase Persistence which means that our bodies continue to produce that enzyme into adulthood and throughout their lives. Being lactose intolerant as a teenager or adult used to be the natural state of things until the mutation appeared to allow the enzyme to continue to be produced. It's quite simple because all mammals are born with the enzyme that enables the, to process lactose. You are completely misunderstanding the process with your repeated insistence that it is evidence against evolution. I don't know why anyone is bothering, you refused to heed anyone's posts when before your Starbucks monicker was banned and I doubt you're going to be more receptive just because you reappeared under a new screen name several hours afterwards. You're not fooling anyone. The questions, type of syntax and confusion mixed with ignorance on Amy of the biological processes being discussed shines through like a lighthouse beacon.

digestive.niddk.nih.gov...
Primary lactase deficiency, also called lactase nonpersistence!

lactase nonpersistance is a disease not the norm.
----------------

omim.org...

European -13910*T allele of lactose intolerance was found in neanderthal!
---------------------
High frequency of lactose intolerance in a prehistoric hunter-gatherer population in northern Europe
www.biomedcentral.com...
europpeans were lactose intolerant in prehistory because of europpean -13910*T
allele.
---------------------------
Blue-eyed Humans Have A Single, Common Ancestor
www.sciencedaily.com...
cientists have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6,000-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans

originally posted by: anafanil

digestive.niddk.nih.gov...
Primary lactase deficiency, also called lactase nonpersistence!

lactase nonpersistance is a disease not the norm.
----------------

omim.org...

European -13910*T allele of lactose intolerance was found in neanderthal!
---------------------
High frequency of lactose intolerance in a prehistoric hunter-gatherer population in northern Europe
www.biomedcentral.com...
europpeans were lactose intolerant in prehistory because of europpean -13910*T
allele.
---------------------------
Blue-eyed Humans Have A Single, Common Ancestor
www.sciencedaily.com...
cientists have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6,000-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans

Howdy,

From your first cited source...

"Primary lactase deficiency, also called lactase nonpersistence, is the most common type of lactase deficiency. In people with this condition, lactase production declines over time. This decline often begins at about age 2; however, the decline may begin later."
( digestive.niddk.nih.gov... )

To me, this seems like a genetic "spectrum" of phenotype. You know, complete lactase deficiency, somewhat lactase deficient, normal lactase production+decline ,lactase persistent. Is this not like how there isn't just one shade of brown hair? You get a spectrum of brown hair in human populations, right?

Now, I think you'll find that for all mammals, lactase persistence is quite unique to humans, who have actually cultivated dairy cows for milk as a food source...
en.wikipedia.org...

I would quite frankly be surprised if lactase persistence were found in Neanderthals, as they predate the apparent "farming and herding" revolution seen in European societies.
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm not a biologist, but that would be my take on the issue, at least. As for the blue eyes thing, what does that have to do with anything at all? Sure, your link to a "neutral mutation" (as per your source) shows common ancestry between blue eyed individuals. But apparently not all blue eyes are indeed the same.
www.nbcnews.com...

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: Pauligirl
You have been called out about quote mining before. Why do you keep doing it? It certainly does not help your cause.

Has it never occurred to you that just MAYBE some here on ATS actually believe what they are posting?

Although I realize it would be rather naive to believe that everyone here is honest.

While I am sure that ATS does attract a lot of deliberate liars, some of us here just don't like to roll that way.

I happen to be one of them.

BTW, I actually had to go look up 'quote mining' now to find out just what the heck this horrendous 'crime' I am so guilty of...

The first thing I noticed was that one can be guilty of 'quote mining' without actually being aware of it:

In either case, while quoting a person out of context can be done intentionally to advance an agenda or win an argument, it is also possible to remove essential context without the aim to mislead, through not perceiving a change in meaning or implication that may result from quoting what is perceived as the essential crux of a statement.

en.wikipedia.org...

Evolutionists are notorious for expressing objection when their quotes are used against them. This reveals the dogmatic nature of their faith, because real scientists always welcome evidence which contradicts mainstream theories (see scientific method). While the entire fields of law and politics encourage quoting an adversary to discredit him, evolutionists do not feel their quotes should be used to criticize evolution, and have invented the term "quote mining" to criticize that practice. They have tried to make quote mining a pejorative term, but the neologism has yet to be recognized by major dictionaries

www.conservapedia.com...

lactase deficiency is a disease . it is not the norm.
-----------
blue eyes is a recessive mutation can not overtake all neanderthals species unless neanderthals were a sub branch of humans who the recessive muation is in both parents!
---------------

the light hair light skin cvolor is found in both neanderthals and humans and of same gene mutation:

Neanderthal Origin of the Haplotypes Carrying the Functional Variant Val92Met in the MC1R in Modern Humans

mbe.oxfordjournals.org...

"Neanderthal introgressive haplotypes (into europpeans and others) carry the Val92Met variant"
.

all three dna mutations are found in neanderthals and also found in human populations separated by ions (europpeans and melanesians) but are novertheless branches of the same human branch from Y chromosomal Adam The haplogroup K (europpean r, melanesian k)

a reply to: anafanil

Hello Starbucks! Back already?

a reply to: GetHyped

Yup reporting him.

a reply to: anafanil

Howdy,

Look, this is getting quite old. I'm a patient man, and I certainly don't mind discussing this with you regardless of what username you may be using at the time, but please do provide some citations for your assertions.

From your sources, the common blue eye trait is something that appeared within the last 10,000 years, yes? From my source, Neanderthals went extinct well before that (but not before interbreeding with modern humans and passing on some DNA). I've already explained to you recessive traits and DNA, haven't I? (I do apologize if I haven't, it gets hard to figure out who is who around here sometimes...)

In case I haven't, I'll direct you to a Punnet Square. Do notice that more than one gene can be looked at at the same time using this method of determining probabilities of passing on a certain genotype. Genotype predicts phenotype. Using alleles, one can explain how recessive traits can be passed on by two people expressing dominant traits.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

You seem to know a bit about genetics, so I find it silly to be (as a student of geology) explaining simple biological concepts to you. I'll continue responding for the benefit of other parties (interested readers of this discussion looking to make an informed decision), but do not mistake this as me falling for your games. So I repeat, please provide some citations for your claims.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

so you are saying that neanderthal indeed passed these three mutations (blue eyes, red hair and skin, lactose intolerance ) to humans?
but only to humans of the same haplogroup?

a reply to: Murgatroid

What I see if you using the same quotes over and over again.

While I am sure that ATS does attract a lot of deliberate liars, some of us here just don't like to roll that way.

If you don't "like to roll that way" then maybe you need to do a little research before you post.