What is evolution, not what some think

a reply to: addygrace

Yeah, right....



You can just imagine how well those kids will be prepared for future and science...

a reply to: SuperFrog

It is to my profound shame and embarrassment that that man (Ken Ham) is my countryman. I'd like to believe that an Australian would have more common sense, but unfortunately it's proof that geography is no immunity to irrational belief and the fact that he is capable of so much harm to our society is a truly sad indictment of the fundamentalist mindset.

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: SuperFrog

Cool video btw cheers...now where is the person using the Platypus as an argument against Toe?
Yup all of them.
You know Iam very anti theist and I consider it abuse to make kids follow a religion, they should be able to make up their own minds given all the facts about every religion and any other choices.

Having kids go to church is nothing like abuse. I think you might just be joking, but I'm not sure.

The simple act of going to church is not. HOWEVER, brainwashing them when they are too young to make a decision for themselves is abuse, IMO. Indoctrination is the only reason most religions still exists. It made sense back in the day when people were tortured and executed for denial or speaking against it. Today, it creates an emotional connection to a belief system that the parents themselves do not even know is true. Now THAT'S power. They were indoctrinated, can't verify any of it, but do the same and pass it to their kids because they think it's true because they have that same emotional connection that was created by their parents, and their parents' parents. It's a cycle that will only end when folks become more enlightened and cling less to literal stories over scientific facts. I applaud any parent that was indoctrinated and managed to break the cycle and not do the same to their children. It's a huge problem in the world today. It is emotional abuse, and is probably why the whole baptism of babies thing was started. Target them young when they are impressionable. It's very sad. If god was real, and these religious descriptions of him were true, there would be no need for indoctrination.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: addygrace

Yeah, right....

You can just imagine how well those kids will be prepared for future and science...

There are a lot of "Indocrinated" Christian kids, who get home schooled and are much more prepared for the real world, and college, than most secular raised kids.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: SuperFrog

Cool video btw cheers...now where is the person using the Platypus as an argument against Toe?
Yup all of them.
You know Iam very anti theist and I consider it abuse to make kids follow a religion, they should be able to make up their own minds given all the facts about every religion and any other choices.

Having kids go to church is nothing like abuse. I think you might just be joking, but I'm not sure.

The simple act of going to church is not. HOWEVER, brainwashing them when they are too young to make a decision for themselves is abuse, IMO. Indoctrination is the only reason most religions still exists. It made sense back in the day when people were tortured and executed for denial or speaking against it. Today, it creates an emotional connection to a belief system that the parents themselves do not even know is true. Now THAT'S power. They were indoctrinated, can't verify any of it, but do the same and pass it to their kids because they think it's true because they have that same emotional connection that was created by their parents, and their parents' parents. It's a cycle that will only end when folks become more enlightened and cling less to literal stories over scientific facts. I applaud any parent that was indoctrinated and managed to break the cycle and not do the same to their children. It's a huge problem in the world today. It is emotional abuse, and is probably why the whole baptism of babies thing was started. Target them young when they are impressionable. It's very sad. If god was real, and these religious descriptions of him were true, there would be no need for indoctrination.

Your hate for Christianity is absurd. I have a 6 year old girl who went to a preschool at a church, she goes to bible school on Sunday's, is in advanced classes at her school, and is very bright. She knows all about Jesus, and we talk about the Bible from time to time. She's had a dream where Jesus showed her heaven. She said it was extremely beautiful, large fruit, colors we have never seen, and she said he loved her. I'm glad you're not into making laws based on what you think I should teach my child. My little girl won an award for being the kindest kid in her class. It described her as greeting everyone with a smile everyday no matter what. I don't teach her hate or exclusion. Teaching her the Bible is a blessing in my family, in turn she is a blessing in all of her relationships. So excuse me if I don't buy into your brainwashing, because my kids teach me more about God than I have learned on my own.

Just to add....Your kids are your legacy. If learning the Bible is indoctrination, then everything is indoctrination. It is your responsibility to teach them what you think is right. As a parent you could and will make mistakes. I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision. By claiming religion to be abuse, your downplaying what real abuse looks like. One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking, so when they get on sites like ATS, they can discern the propaganda from the truth.

a reply to: addygrace

"I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision."

"One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking"

I had to do a double take reading that.

I don't think it is possible to teach the bible and critical thinking. Those things are mutually exclusive of one another.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: addygrace

"I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision."

"One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking"

I had to do a double take reading that.

I don't think it is possible to teach the bible and critical thinking. Those things are mutually exclusive of one another.

Just curious....what does critical thinking have to do with the Bible?

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.

A statement by Michael Scriven & Richard Paul, presented at the 8th Annual International Conference on Critical Thinking and Education Reform, Summer 1987.

originally posted by: addygrace
Your hate for Christianity is absurd. I have a 6 year old girl who went to a preschool at a church, she goes to bible school on Sunday's, is in advanced classes at her school, and is very bright. She knows all about Jesus, and we talk about the Bible from time to time. She's had a dream where Jesus showed her heaven. She said it was extremely beautiful, large fruit, colors we have never seen, and she said he loved her. I'm glad you're not into making laws based on what you think I should teach my child. My little girl won an award for being the kindest kid in her class. It described her as greeting everyone with a smile everyday no matter what. I don't teach her hate or exclusion. Teaching her the Bible is a blessing in my family, in turn she is a blessing in all of her relationships. So excuse me if I don't buy into your brainwashing, because my kids teach me more about God than I have learned on my own.

I don't hate Christianity, I hate how it is often (not always)spread by forcing children via threats of hell, rather than through good deeds that make it the obvious choice, and the fact that they are too young to comprehend it when it's pounded into their head. It's one thing to teach them about the bible and morality. I do generally think it is a good tool for that. It's a whole other ballpark to tell them it's absolute fact and the only way to live, and do it to them while they are too young to comprehend it. They should be given a choice when they are old enough to understand it. When I was 6, I was the same as your daughter. I believed it unwaveringly, hook, line, sinker. I was benevolent because I thought that's what god wanted. Today I still do good deeds, but don't believe the literal stories. Many of them were obviously written to teach morality. I see nothing wrong with the way you are raising your child. Good deeds are the most important thing and that's what Jesus taught and it's nice to see that rather than to brainwash them with Intelligent Design home schooling books instead of science books.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: addygrace

"I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision."

"One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking"

I had to do a double take reading that.

I don't think it is possible to teach the bible and critical thinking. Those things are mutually exclusive of one another.

Star for you . . . I did a double take as well . . . For reference, let's examine the thought processes involved in critical thinking and problem solving. (Note: the steps vary depending on the source).
One Source

We are thinking critically and in a problem solving mindset when we:

Rely on reason rather than emotion
Evaluate a broad range of viewpoints and perspectives
Maintain an open mind to alternative interpretations
Accept new evidence, explanations and findings
Are willing to reassess information
Can put aside personal prejudices and biases
Consider all reasonable possibilities
Avoid hasty judgments

It seems "teaching the bible" as "truth" doesn't satisfy any process of the mindset. Religion is based on faith, which originates on how one "feels" about the validity of the information . . . strike one. Religion eliminates alternative viewpoints and perspectives, as the information is given as the "correct way" . . . strike two. Religion discourages an "open mind", as the teachings are supposed to originate from a supreme authority . . . strike three. Accept new evidence, explanations, and findings . . . nope, religion is dogmatic . . . strike four. Reassess information . . . nope, again the story is set upon authority . . . strike five. Religion never "puts aside" personal bias toward their worldview . . . strike six. Religion only "considers" their worldview as the possibility . . . strike 7. Religion is the ultimate authority on judgement . . . judgement based on faith (no evidence) . . . strike 8.

One more strike and you got yourself a complete inning of perfect ball . . . (Baseball for the non-U.S. contingent).

So what are the "steps" to solving problems critically?
McGraw Hill Text on Critical Thinking

Critical Thinking Basics

1. Critical thinking is the process of assessing opinions.
- We all might be entitled to our opinions, but some opinions are more reasonable than others.
- Critical thinking consists of examining the views that you and others hold and the reasons for them.
- Its main purpose is not to make you either more persuasive or a better contestant against others, but to improve your ability to understand and evaluate what you believe.

I have shortened the actual steps to include only step one . . . Generally, there are 5 steps (some sources 6) and they are pretty similar across the board. Visit above link for full evaluation.

I certainly don't see how "teaching the bible" as valid truth holds up to critical thinking skill, when juxtapose against the reality that all humans face on this planet regardless of personal ideology.

But . . . to each their own, I suppose.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

I don't think someone living by these 2 commandments has a problem with critical thinking.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
That is impossible to say since we do not know how many other universes are out there and what the odds are for a universe like ours to appear and develop. Not to mention, you really shouldn't use words like unlikely to talk about galactic and higher events. Given a large enough scale, no matter how unlikely an event is, the probability will go towards 1 (100%) as the number of chances approaches infinity. It's simple calculus there. Heck we don't even know how large our OWN universe is, let alone the unlikelyhood of our universe developing among the other universes.

That idea that there are "other universes" out there and that we are only one in a sea of possibilities. Have you considered what such a 'glib' answer's consequence or provenance are?

Do you, perhaps, have any evidence for it? I mean, you have been harping on the requirement for evidence, surely you should abide by the same rules that you apply to others?

By any definition the multiple universes hypothesis is, and probably, always will be, unprovable. At present, it is a 'new-agey' idea based on nothing more than speculation; and as a hypothesis, is weaker than ones already mentioned, like Panspermia, which does have some significant evidence (and may have a bearing on Biodiversity, without being part of Evolutionary Theory, a point I have been trying to make).

As the rest of your quoted post is based upon an assumption of the infinite, which has never been observed in nature (Quantum Theory and Big Bang Cosmology both preclude infinities), you'll have to produce some evidence before anyone will accept that.

I cannot accept the particular quoted section of your post post as reasoned.

a reply to: solomons path
Anybody that has kids knows they are not a clone of yourself. No matter what you teach them they have to grow up and be their own person. They get to decide if what they've been taught is truth. This is why people don't go to Jail for what their grown kids do. I teach my kids to test what they think they know. They can then make decisions based on these tests. I know plenty of people that went to Church as children and didn't hold on to any of the beliefs they were taught. I however didn't grow up in Church, but I look at the world and see a personal God.

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: addygrace

"I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision."

"One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking"

I had to do a double take reading that.

I don't think it is possible to teach the bible and critical thinking. Those things are mutually exclusive of one another.

Just curious....what does critical thinking have to do with the Bible?

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: addygrace

"I don't think any person that's currently teaching their kids about God are gonna regret that decision."

"One of the best things you can teach your kids is critical thinking"

I had to do a double take reading that.

I don't think it is possible to teach the bible and critical thinking. Those things are mutually exclusive of one another.

Just curious....what does critical thinking have to do with the Bible?

It's funny...I knew you were gonna do that. What part of the Bible would you say stops you from critically thinking? Is it Angels sleeping with women? The flood? Jesus walking on water?
There's nothing in the Bible that is impossible. What stops you from critically thinking about what the Bible has to say?
I think sometimes people will hear a Christian say things like the Earth is 6000 years old and we should teach this in class rooms, and they bias themselves against the Bible. The problem is the Bible doesn't say this.

originally posted by: addygrace
What part of the Bible would you say stops you from critically thinking?

That would be the "all of the bible" part of the bible..

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
C'mon you can do this.
Why?

originally posted by: addygrace
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
C'mon you can do this.
Why?

Perhaps all that Old Testament stuff he saw made him feel uncomfortably guilty and rather than thinking critically about changes he would have to make in his attitudes and lifestyle to come up to the standard, instead he chose to avoid any thinking at all that might lead to such moral discomfort.

At least that is one way the Bible could prevent critical thinking in some people.

a reply to: addygrace

Okay, sounds just like my daughter. Great!

Do you want to know what I told her when she asked me (about a bit more than a year ago, she was four then) where we come from?

I told her 3 different versions and let her decide on her own. I really, really tried to present all three of them equally (no jokes, no raised eyebrows or something like that), because.. I was curious! What would my (bright) daughter hold for the most possible solution?

(1) Simple evolution - archaeonts, eucharyonts, multiple-cell-organism, australopithecus, homo sapiens. (not in those words, of course). Starts with the primordial soup and some heat and lightning.
(2) Panspermia - seeds came by meteors from outer space, produced by chance somewhere in space or on another planet.
(3) Genesis - I literally read to her Genesis 1 "Let there be light...".

She thought that I was joking with (3)... Okay, she was biased as we are unaffiliated with any religion. NEVERTHELESS, she couldn't accept that god created, maybe just for fun (her words) a planet just like this.

She went with (1), as that seems obvious to her (her words).

I swear this is the truth. No puns, no jokes or anything. Just asked my kid what she thought about those 3 major choices.


Edit: I didn't tell her about evolution before. I didn't read the bible to her before. I didn't speak to her about the possibility of life on other planets before. She was in the most unprepared mindset for this occasion that I could think of!