Have you ever had a Crisis of Faith?

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: schuyler

Like I said originally, an atheist is in as much a "relationship" with God as a believer--just a more antagonistic one. It's a faith you can't even talk about without invoking God.

I disagree. I am insulting Santa Claus. I can imagine all the kids who would scream and cry and kick the floor in indignation,
Hardly. Big bad God is no longer there to play the Mafia curmudgeon,

You are being both pedantic and superficial, if not juvenile, a typical atheist on a rampage because he's quite sure God doesn't exist, so sure of yourself that you can't take a moment to understand what I am saying. I find this ironic in the context of my previous comments to Godlover which, if you were at all paying attention, you would see agree much more with your overall stance than against it. I am not a Christian. In other words, given what we are talking about, you should be agreeing with me. Now plug that into your craw before you continue to make a fool of yourself any further.

As any Philosophy 101 instructor will tell you, the semantic argument here is important. Etymology is important if you are to understand what you are actually saying. One more time for those who need it spelled out for them:

A THEIST believes there is a God.
An ATHEIST believes there is no God.
An AGNOSTIC does not stand in a believing relationship with the issue.

My argument is based on cultural anthropology as well as language. An atheist has made up his mind there is no God, but he is in a 'believing relationship' with the concept. It's in the word itself and you can't just wish it away. Santa Claus is irrelevant here. He BELIEVES! In the case of Godlover's upbringing, he was constantly barraged with atheistic statements made by his parents and siblings. This wasn't at all a neutral household, not one where he was told to decide his own path. It was actively antagonistic to the entire concept. Being at home must have sounded like being in the midst of your posts all day long. But what was he hearing? GOD does not exist. GOD is false. There is no GOD. It was all about GOD, GOD, GOD--not existing, but still, it was all about GOD. You see it in the word "ATHEIST". What's the biggest part of that word? THEIST. The "a" is a modifier, literally. There's no denying that the one concept that kept being repeated was (you guessed it) GOD.

In this family GOD isn't trivial. The idea isn't mundane, isn't forgettable, isn't ignored. They're not saying, "What? God? Meh! Weird stuff. What's for dinner?" Instead, they're saying, "GOD! NO! Screw GOD! To hell with GOD! The whole thing is absolute complete nonsense! How ridiculous!" (Sound familiar?) So this kid grows up parroting his family and is a "staunch atheist" just like they are, but the fact is, GOD as a concept has been in his life since day one, lurking back there as a concept--not to be believed--but back there anyway. From the culture he has absorbed some Biblical stories. he's got the basics down, as everyone does, whether he was forced to endure catechism or not. And I don't think he has told us the whole story, but one day he has an epiphany. "God" talks to him, and now he's quoting Bible verses at us as if they would mean something, just as staunchly theist as you are atheist.

That was his "crisis of faith." That's what the OP asked. "Have you had a "crisis of faith" and this guy described what happened to him. He was a FAITHFUL atheist, God talked to him, and now he isn't. He once was lost, but now he's found! Surely not a unique story. Madelyn O'Hair's son is another one. Push too hard and you get the opposite. Just like we've all known people who "grew up religious" and spurned the faith in adulthood.

Now the more interesting question is what will happen when you get a little older and have the benefit of a lifetime of experience to weigh against the see-saw of childhood contrasted with young adulthood. Will you mellow a bit, perhaps, and realize you don't really know as much as you think you did when you were young? (See my sig.)

Or will you, A-Infinity, still be angry that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

a reply to: schuyler

I have a life to attend to, so I will answer your post tomorrow. Thank you for your patience.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I'd rather not riffle through your extensive history of posts for a few isolated examples of spiritual experiences. I can wait until you are rested and ready to rumble.

You have more posts than I do, and only took you two years.
I don't have an experience that made me a believer since I never experienced a lack of belief.
It seems to go back to a point before I was born, and was in some other place. It seems to be a little bit weird to think of it now, and probably why people normally just forget anything before the current life that they are in.

I have had experiences that sort of reinforce my belief but they did not happen for that reason, but just to deal with practical problems in life.
An example would be someone telling me that they for some reason, and this never happens to them, but God told them that they were supposed to give me a message about what I should do, though it meant nothing to them, just me, and things no one else would know about.

Christopher Hitchens showed me the error of my ways.

I wouldn't call it a crisis, more of an awakening.

a reply to: schuyler

It's not my prerogative to prove to you what's evident. You'll face God soon enough. You explain to Him why you mocked Him, if you're able... all I know is God is tremendous and powerful, and I'd REALLY hate to be in front of Him without an advocate. Imagine all the stars in the Universe condensed into One Omnipotent Being, times a trillion. You're still nowhere near God...

Remember the Israelites at Sinai (I know you don't believe it happened, but it did, so just bear with me here):

Exodus 20:18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. 19 Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

Lord have mercy

a reply to: godlover25

You explain to Him why you mocked Him, if you're able.

Dude. Seriously, I don't think you're old enough to remember, but you may have seen the SNL sketch with John Malkovich -
no matter what ANYONE says to him, his reply is

"You mock me."

People asking questions are not "mocking" anyone. Your paranoia is showing...

If this forum bothers you so very much, why do you come here?

That ^^^^^ is a Question.

I find it odd that when you were asked to disclose more about your epiphany, you came back with scripture. Scripture is not an answer to "what happened to you?"

Here is a transcript of the bit - I can't find the video.

[ Lady Tewksbury enters Lord Edmund's sitting room to talk with him ]

Lady Tewksbury: Edmund! Finally we are together. I have a long-lost resort to speak my deepest secret. Oh, my God, Edmund, I love thee. I do so love thee!

Lord Edmund: You mock me.

Lady Tewksbury: Edmund, nothing could be further from the truth! I adore you.. I worship you!

Lord Edmund: You mock me.

Lady Tewksbury: Mock you? Why, Edmund.. how could I mock no noble and honorable a man? A man so completely unworthy of mockery.

Lord Edmund: [ stands ] If you truly love me, then why do you insist on mocking me so?! Now! Away with you!! Go on, go! Leave at once!

Lady Tewksbury: [ in tears ] Very well! But if you will not requieth my love.. I shall kill myself!

Lord Edmund: You mock me! [ chases her out ] And I will NOT be mocked!! [ pauses in anger ] The insolence and bold affrontary! [ walks forward, never suspecting that his Servants are imitating his walk in a fit of mockery behind his back ] She was mocking me, was she not?

Servant #1: Oh, yes, your Lord. [ Servant #2 mocks Lord Edmund behind his back as Servant #1 speaks ] I was crimson with rage and egregious impertinence of her bold ignorance! [ to Servant #2 ] Would you promise?

Servant #2: Oh, yes.. [ Servant #1 mocks Lord Edmund behind his back as Servant #2 speaks ] ..the brazen audacity of her tongue was surpassed only by her derisive hauture!

Lord Edmund: I thought so.

Doorman: My Lord! The Royal Artist has completed his portrait of your Lordship, he seeks your approval.

Lord Edmund: Show him in.

Royal Artist: [ enters with painting ] Master, I humbly present the fruit of two years' labor.. [ displays painting ] The Royal Portrait!

Lord Edmund: [ examines it disapprovingly ]

Royal Artist: My Lord is not pleased with the portrait?

Lord Edmund: You mock me.

Royal Artist: My Lordship, quite the contrary.. The portrait celebrates your noble bearing! I put you in uniform to capture the lion heart that beats within your heroic breasts!

Lord Edmund: Will this mockery never cease? Away with you. If there is one thing I cannot abide, it is being mocked! now, go! And take your grotesque caricature with you! [ runs Royal Artist out, as the Servants mock his running ] I will not be mocked!! [ walks across the room, as the Servants continue to mock his movements ] Was I wrong?

Servant #1: Heavens no, your Highness. His most contempt was rendering. The talks on canvas. Wouldn't you say so, Thomas?

Servant #2: Oh, yes, yes, yes.. The affrontary of his derisive painting was surpassed only by his brazen gall!

Lord Edmund: Exactly!

Doorman: My Lord, Nigel the Groundskeeper seeks a word with you.

Lord Edmund: If he must..

Nigel the Groundskeeper: [ runs in ] Excuse me, Squire, I hate to bother you, but we've been having some problems with some poachers. We've noticed twelve wild pigs missing, and several pheasants as well. I would like to request a detachment of your guards to help find the trespassers.

Lord Edmund: You mock me.

Nigel the Groundskeeper: I'm sorry, Squire?

Lord Edmund: You.. mock.. me.

Nigel the Groundskeeper: As.. I was saying, Squire, if we could deal with this poacher matter, then..

Lord Edmund: I find it most baffling that one so low would hope to gain from mocking one so high!

Nigel the Groundskeeper: Excuse me, Squire.. I don't mean to talk out of turn, but with respect to this mockery, sir, I would imagine if anyone was mocking you, it would be the poachers themselves..

Lord Edmund: They mock me! But not to my face! Now, away with you!!

Nigel the Groundskeeper: Right away, Squire! [ runs out ]

Lord Edmund: [ chases him out ] I will not be mocked!! [ walks around, as the Servants continue to mock him ] I grow weary.. [ looks out the window ] The moon is out. I say, the moon is out, and yet it is day. The moon mocks me.. and I will not be mocked!

Servant #1: Yes, yes! The crescent moon lets its lunar contempt be seen for what it is - a brazen canopy of affrontary! Thomas?

Servant #2: Oh, yes, yes, of course! The impudence of the moon's bold audacity!

Lord Edmund: [ walks away, as the Servants mock him behind his back ] I will retire now to my chamber, where there are only my bed and my dreams to mock me. [ exits room ]

[ the Servants starts mimicing Lord Edmund's every expression ]

Servant #2: "I will not be mocked!"

Servant #1: "You mock me!"

Servant #2: "I will not be mocked!"

Servant #1: "You mock me!"

Servant #2: "I will not be mocked!"

Servant #1: "You mock me!"

[ Lord Edmund re-enters unnoticed to gather his smoking jacket, watching sadly as the Servants mock him ]

snltranscripts.jt.org...

( if it looks too long to read, think of it as a wall of scripture, godlover25 )

a reply to: schuyler

Oh and again, your analysis of the situation is ill advised at best, or even flat out wrong.

It's not that I was raised in a militant atheist household where God was demonized, it's that I was raised in an irreligious household, God was never spoken of.

Proof in point, I knew not the Genesis creation myths nor the Gospel narratives until twenty one years of age...

You can tell me I'm delusional all day, it won't change what I've been through and seen, nor what I know. God is as real to me as my mother and father, He IS Reality Itself. You cannot exist without The Existence.

When I read Dawkins God Delusion book, my faith was increased dramatically. I love reading the New Atheist stuff, it helps my faith and strengthens my reserve, and shows how weak and petty the "best" arguments against God really are.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I will not cast my pearls to swine.

My epiphany is a deeply personal experience and I shouldn't have even made mention of it.

If I feel someone genuinely wants to know, not just to mock, I will disclose more. Until then,

Lord have mercy

a reply to: Psynic

Hitch strengthened my faith. His arguments are weak, St. Thomas and St. Augustine SMASH him.

a reply to: godlover25

I will not cast my pearls to swine.

Who are you judging as "swine"?

My epiphany is a deeply personal experience and I shouldn't have even made mention of it.

Because surely you would only be 'mocked'? That's not much of a witnessing.

If I feel someone genuinely wants to know, not just to mock, I will disclose more.

Go up a few posts and read the transcript. It blows your faux indignance at being "mocked" out of the water.
*rolls eyes*

originally posted by: godlover25
a reply to: Psynic

Hitch strengthened my faith. His arguments are weak, St. Thomas and St. Augustine SMASH him.

Wishful thinking at best methinks

And St. Thomas and St. Augustine? Scraping the bottom of the (fish) barrel arnt we?

a reply to: godlover25

I will not cast my pearls to swine.

That's like an oxymoron when people say that, because you just threw out one of the quotes of Jesus (a figurative pearl) before who you just designated as (figuratively) swine.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
(2011 NIV)

Interestingly, this verse comes right after a rather extensive lecture by Jesus on not judging others.

originally posted by: godlover25
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I will not cast my pearls to swine.

My epiphany is a deeply personal experience and I shouldn't have even made mention of it.

If I feel someone genuinely wants to know, not just to mock, I will disclose more. Until then,

Lord have mercy

In other words, you don't wish to discuss this with anyone except those who are going to agree with what you say. Your game is more fixed than a carnival attraction.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: AfterInfinity

I'd rather not riffle through your extensive history of posts for a few isolated examples of spiritual experiences. I can wait until you are rested and ready to rumble.

You have more posts than I do, and only took you two years.
I don't have an experience that made me a believer since I never experienced a lack of belief.
It seems to go back to a point before I was born, and was in some other place. It seems to be a little bit weird to think of it now, and probably why people normally just forget anything before the current life that they are in.

I have had experiences that sort of reinforce my belief but they did not happen for that reason, but just to deal with practical problems in life.
An example would be someone telling me that they for some reason, and this never happens to them, but God told them that they were supposed to give me a message about what I should do, though it meant nothing to them, just me, and things no one else would know about.

I don't see what my number of posts has to do with anything. I am a proliferate contributor on a number of topics. As for your brief explanation...I see. Most intriguing. Thank you for your response.

a reply to: godlover25

There are plenty of places to attempt to convert the sinners, I am not sure this is one of them (the thread, that is).

If you are not willing to throw pearls before swine, why throw Jesus under the bus instead of relating your own experiences?

Perhaps it is only my interpretation of those words, but I always take the "pearls before swine" phrase to mean remain silent rather than use Jesus' teachings as "slop."

Buzzy,

Be prepared to keep building forever. Getting a strong foundation can make all the difference in the world though. One that allows for changes without getting bogged down in cultural contexts is even better!

a reply to: schuyler

You are being both pedantic and superficial, if not juvenile, a typical atheist on a rampage because he's quite sure God doesn't exist, so sure of yourself that you can't take a moment to understand what I am saying. I find this ironic in the context of my previous comments to Godlover which, if you were at all paying attention, you would see agree much more with your overall stance than against it. I am not a Christian. In other words, given what we are talking about, you should be agreeing with me. Now plug that into your craw before you continue to make a fool of yourself any further.

I don't believe I mentioned you personally, so I don't know why you are attacking me personally.

As any Philosophy 101 instructor will tell you, the semantic argument here is important. Etymology is important if you are to understand what you are actually saying. One more time for those who need it spelled out for them:

A THEIST believes there is a God.
An ATHEIST believes there is no God.
An AGNOSTIC does not stand in a believing relationship with the issue.

I'm well aware of this.

My argument is based on cultural anthropology as well as language. An atheist has made up his mind there is no God, but he is in a 'believing relationship' with the concept. It's in the word itself and you can't just wish it away. Santa Claus is irrelevant here. He BELIEVES! In the case of Godlover's upbringing, he was constantly barraged with atheistic statements made by his parents and siblings. This wasn't at all a neutral household, not one where he was told to decide his own path. It was actively antagonistic to the entire concept. Being at home must have sounded like being in the midst of your posts all day long. But what was he hearing? GOD does not exist. GOD is false. There is no GOD. It was all about GOD, GOD, GOD--not existing, but still, it was all about GOD. You see it in the word "ATHEIST". What's the biggest part of that word? THEIST. The "a" is a modifier, literally. There's no denying that the one concept that kept being repeated was (you guessed it) GOD.

Yep. An empty vessel which you might fill with the trappings of whatever premium plan suits your fancy. That's exactly what the word "God" constitutes. Theists spend more time talking about what they imagine God to be than proving what God is. If everyone was right about God, God himself wouldn't know what he was.

In this family GOD isn't trivial. The idea isn't mundane, isn't forgettable, isn't ignored. They're not saying, "What? God? Meh! Weird stuff. What's for dinner?" Instead, they're saying, "GOD! NO! Screw GOD! To hell with GOD! The whole thing is absolute complete nonsense! How ridiculous!" (Sound familiar?) So this kid grows up parroting his family and is a "staunch atheist" just like they are, but the fact is, GOD as a concept has been in his life since day one, lurking back there as a concept--not to be believed--but back there anyway. From the culture he has absorbed some Biblical stories. he's got the basics down, as everyone does, whether he was forced to endure catechism or not. And I don't think he has told us the whole story, but one day he has an epiphany. "God" talks to him, and now he's quoting Bible verses at us as if they would mean something, just as staunchly theist as you are atheist.

On that matter, I can agree with you.

That was his "crisis of faith." That's what the OP asked. "Have you had a "crisis of faith" and this guy described what happened to him. He was a FAITHFUL atheist, God talked to him, and now he isn't. He once was lost, but now he's found! Surely not a unique story. Madelyn O'Hair's son is another one. Push too hard and you get the opposite. Just like we've all known people who "grew up religious" and spurned the faith in adulthood.

Cool stuff. And I get what you're driving at too, by the way. Should I formulate a public apology?

Now the more interesting question is what will happen when you get a little older and have the benefit of a lifetime of experience to weigh against the see-saw of childhood contrasted with young adulthood. Will you mellow a bit, perhaps, and realize you don't really know as much as you think you did when you were young? (See my sig.)

Are you assuming I'm young? Thank you! That's very kind. I do so wish...but that's for another topic.

Or will you, A-Infinity, still be angry that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

Disappointed at his nonexistence, and disgusted at our inaction in his absence. Anger, in my experience, is a largely unhelpful emotion, particularly if unchecked.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

This deserves to be watched by EVERYONE on these forums.

Here it is embedded:


In particular, I hope that members who have contributed to this post watch it, but it would actually be good for ANY person who comes across it!

Thanks!!

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Too bad I don't have my earphones on me right now.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Actually, if you watch it without hearing, you'll still get most of the points. The captions say a lot.


But - let me know when you've had a chance to watch and listen!!

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So basically, that video is "agnosticism/atheism/theism for the extremely mentally challenged".