Have you ever had a Crisis of Faith?

a reply to: schuyler

It's not like you had a choice whether to go to church; your Mom dragged you there where you liked the cookies and punch

LOL!! No, there were no 'cookies and punch.' It was coffee only.
I learned how to tolerate it with lots of milk and sugar. (And later became a full-fledged coffee drinker - though recently I've had to switch to tea, as the coffee-high gave me tremors....)

A "crisis of faith" to me means an adult who HAS been fully indoctrinated finally figuring out that at least some of his cherished beliefs might not be true and questioning them. The real test at this point is whether he finally gets to the point you did at age 10 knowing it is all B.S., or whether his programming and brainwashing only allow him to continue with a slightly altered version of his beliefs, which he thinks are profound and meaningful, but amount to the same thing.

Yes, it happens. It happened to me early, I guess....
but there are people - including adults - who have finally challenged their indoctrination. And it can be very painful for them. So, I believe some people are just unwilling to "go there." Which is a shame.

a reply to: olaru12

my experience in the church as a kid was one of fear and guilt.

Yeah, mine too.

Thanks for your contribution.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
what compromises are you willing to make and what do you base your judgment on?

Common sense. Love is important and lasting. Any God worth anything would be full of love. If He isn't, then He isn't worthy of worship.

Being sent to hell for eating bacon ... absurd and not in line with a God of Love.

Being sent to hell for using birth control ... absurd and not in line with a God of Love.

Being sent to hell for being a woman getting an education ... absurd and not in line with a God of Love.

And if it turns out that the real God isn't a 'God of Love' ... then my conscience is clear. I did, or tried to do, everything right and the failure would be on Him for not being loving like He should be.

originally posted by: NthOther
If you're an agnostic, why are you constantly trying to point out inconsistencies and other such flaws in the belief systems of religious people, like any good captial-A Atheist would?

Agnostics admit they don't know, and don't profess to care.

That is not consistent with the deliberately instigated religion-bashing that is going to fill this thread in 3... 2... 1...

You sound as though you are asking for it.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Had no faith at all until I got feed up with the world and totally rejected everything on earth and this life. A messenger intervened and came running to give me information physically in person. Of course had the normal question: I can give you money to make sure I was not interested in material wealth that I rejected.

4 days later I had the moment of clarity followed by supernatural events. I love whatever is giving me the feelings of love on the other side of the veil. The energy from there make me feel like I am home even when I am here. In a way it is bittersweet. Long distance relationship. . In a way I want to meet the source of that energy and be near it but that will be at another time it seems.

a reply to: TrueBrit

But the thing that keeps me strong in the faith, is that a faith untested is no faith at all, and mine has been tested, and tempered, and beaten, and quenched over and over, time after time, and at this time I can rely on it, my God, my Saviour, and on myself, when it is necessary that I do so. Anyone with a conscious ability to empathise with their fellow human beings is going to find living tough, is going to find their faith in WHATEVER they believe, tested in times such as these. I would argue that only by feeling these things, and responding to them honestly, can a person really find strength and guidance from their faith.

Before I begin, let me first say that I have always admired your posts - or rather, the point of view reflected within them. You're not an idiot, and you're not a douchebag. Which are two very important things I take into consideration when interacting with anyone.

Having said as much, I'm curious as to one particular part of your post:

"But the thing that keeps me strong in the faith, is that a faith untested is no faith at all"

Faith that is tested is no faith at all. That's the definition of faith. That's why we're warned against testing God. So God can test us, but we can't test God? I guess what I'm getting at here is a double standard of sorts, obscure as it may seem.

I also wanted to point out one other thing:

"Anyone with a conscious ability to empathise with their fellow human beings"

...should not require a god for guidance. Or is it for support? I feel I need clarification on this, I guess.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The only thing I think is true is that all things are on one level or another connected to a degree. How it is connected I have no specific information on. But it makes me wanna follow the golden rule.

In a way I think of love as a lesser thing of oneness. Two or more beings so integrated that they cannot be separated from each other feeling like they are part of each other.

Namaste ("the divine light in me honors the divine light in you”)

a reply to: AfterInfinity

In response to your first query, faith as I understand it, is that which is carried by a believer toward whatever it is they believe. That element of the many facets of belief, means far more when it has been tested and found strong, than it does untested and possibly weak. Testing God himself is a totally different proposition, and is not something I have any need to involve myself in.

With regard to your second point, I am in complete agreement with you, and I am very good friends with some Atheists who by every definition of the term that I have come into contact with, have every possible virtue of a good Christian, without any belief in Christ what so ever. So not only should a person do these things without a God to worship, but they DO, and that fills me with gladness, that there are good people everywhere, of every different social and ethical demographic.

My choice to believe is just that. Choice. Free will. I choose to believe in God. I am not forced to do so, and I do not require that belief in order to function a wholesome existence where ever that is to be found in this world. But it does help, that when all else is stripped away, as it has been before, and may be again someday, I will always have that little block of faith sitting there, always reminding me that I have never been, and will never be, alone.

Even that effort of will that I use believing in God, returns to me as a gift of peace and grace when I have had the most need of it.

For a portion of my childhood, I grew up in an evangelical christian home. As a young adult I got very involved in Assembly of God/Pentecostal church.

I never felt Gods love, and as much as I tried, I never felt love for God. I prayed and begged God to allow me to feel his love and to put love for him into my heart. I would pray for faith, I had faith, but people were constantly telling me that I didn't have enough or God would hear my prayers. I was told that the bad things happening in my life were because I didn't trust God. I tried, and begged God to help me trust him. The overwhelming guilt I felt nearly destroyed me. I became depressed.
I would read the bible over and over and then become fearful because the very words in the bible were causing my increasing doubt.

I found a verse in Exodus that stated that Moses called God out on his sin against his people and that God Repented. I took this verse to the elders in the church and got called out for "making it up!" Here it is:

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Once I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed, it was the most amazing sense of relief. I felt more free. It was such a weight off my shoulders. I finally felt the lack of burden and joy that everyone told me I was supposed to feel as a believer and never did.

a reply to: TrueBrit

In response to your first query, faith as I understand it, is that which is carried by a believer toward whatever it is they believe. That element of the many facets of belief, means far more when it has been tested and found strong, than it does untested and possibly weak. Testing God himself is a totally different proposition, and is not something I have any need to involve myself in.

I don't see why, which is why I asked. For instance, worshipping a jug of milk has a tendency of eliciting exactly the same results as worshipping the Abrahamic god. The implications in that are something that I, as an honest intellectual, would want to find some closure to. Rather than just ignoring it and pretending the Abrahamic god is exclusively powerful and very fond of me.

With regard to your second point, I am in complete agreement with you, and I am very good friends with some Atheists who by every definition of the term that I have come into contact with, have every possible virtue of a good Christian, without any belief in Christ what so ever. So not only should a person do these things without a God to worship, but they DO, and that fills me with gladness, that there are good people everywhere, of every different social and ethical demographic.

Which strongly suggests that Jesus is unnecessary. More to the point, God is unnecessary. And any person who follows Jesus or God is not doing so because it is a natural and logical course of action, but because it appeals to them on a personal level which has nothing to do with anything except what's inside of their head - much the way alcoholism or OCD works. Sorry if that's offensive.

My choice to believe is just that. Choice. Free will. I choose to believe in God. I am not forced to do so, and I do not require that belief in order to function a wholesome existence where ever that is to be found in this world. But it does help, that when all else is stripped away, as it has been before, and may be again someday, I will always have that little block of faith sitting there, always reminding me that I have never been, and will never be, alone.

Strictly because you believe it is so. And that makes it so. Correct?

Even that effort of will that I use believing in God, returns to me as a gift of peace and grace when I have had the most need of it.

So it's a coping mechanism. Something you choose to invest in, regardless of its foundation in reality, because it provides benefits that feel real to you. Does that not open the door for believing in anything you want to because of of the warm and fuzzy butterflies it evokes? Does that not establish a tendency to rely on fantasy for comfort in lieu of facing reality?

a reply to: calstorm

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Maybe Christian faith was not meant for you to follow. Maybe whatever is beyond the veil have another way to reach you that suits it and you better.

Whatever happens have fun if you can.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I do not rely on God for comfort. I rely on God for strength through faith.

It is not fuzzy butterflies that I seek from my creator. My relationship with God, with Jesus is not one of happy hymn time, it is not a kids television show plot. My God and my Saviour are there for me when the crap has really hit the fan, when I was living on the street, when I have been staggeringly depressed in life, when it mattered, giving me strength, lending a hand where needed.

It does not make me rely on fantasy. The life of a believer is not supposed to be all fluffy bunnies and rolling hills full of lovely flowers! It is as if people conflate Christianity with Hippies these days hehe!

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: AfterInfinity

My choice to believe is just that. Choice. Free will. I choose to believe in God. I am not forced to do so, and I do not require that belief in order to function a wholesome existence where ever that is to be found in this world.

The last half of that sentence I think is quite sensible, but I question the idea that believing is a matter of choice and free will. It isn't. It's a matter of programming at an early age. Christians beget Christians; Muslims beget Muslims; Mormons create Mormons. Being forced into a religion at an early age is very much like learning your native language. It permeates your being and colors your outlook on life in ways you can't imagine because the synapses that would have allowed you to believe or talk in another way have been discarded in favor of strengthening the primary "flavor." It's also not segmented into religious beliefs as a Sunday sideline event, then the rest of your life. It's your entire culture and way of life. It's about your own history and probably your nationality.

And just like your language, it takes a great deal of effort and study to "get rid of your accent." Even most people who are bi-lingual do not achieve it. We native American English speakers can tell the difference between an Irish accent and a French accent within a few words. Indeed, we can tell the difference between Boston and Minnesota, between Texas and Georgia, between Philadelphia and New Jersey, just as easily even when to a foreign speaker, the latter two are effectively indistinguishable. In the same way believers, even if they've managed to shuck the institution itself and proclaim their liberation by refusing the formalities, still carry rosary beads in their pocket. The shadow of their upbringing will never leave them. Like the native in Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" (the guy who said: "Mr. Kurtz; he dead!") he was western in his outlook, but still worshiped evil spirits in his heart.

Even here reading these testimonies we see people who talk about their "crisis" 'changing their relationship with God.' But note that 'God' is still a part of the equation. They may be looking at God through a different window, but He is still primary. It's still all about God. Even an atheist, by definition, can't even talk about it without invoking God. Without the concept of God, atheism is meaningless. There may even be people who think they've done a huge thing by switching allegiances between God and Allah, or dumping one cult for another, but the basics are still the same. There's no substantive change. Their "crisis" is superficial.

Be honest with yourself. You can be as rational as you claim to be, but if you've been inculcated with the idea from an early age, it's still there with every beat of your heart. You can't get away. Your own words betray you.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I do not rely on God for comfort. I rely on God for strength through faith.

See below response.

It is not fuzzy butterflies that I seek from my creator. My relationship with God, with Jesus is not one of happy hymn time, it is not a kids television show plot. My God and my Saviour are there for me when the crap has really hit the fan, when I was living on the street, when I have been staggeringly depressed in life, when it mattered, giving me strength, lending a hand where needed.

Only because you believed it could and would. That's called the placebo effect. You could just as easily have looked at the jug of milk I mentioned earlier and said, "Jug of milk, you give me strength. I believe in you." And you would have done just as well if you believed as much in that jug of milk as you do in your god. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to make assumptions here.

It does not make me rely on fantasy. The life of a believer is not supposed to be all fluffy bunnies and rolling hills full of lovely flowers! It is as if people conflate Christianity with Hippies these days hehe!

I see little difference between you and my four year old neighbor who still believes in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. And where I live, they call that fantasy. There's a reason that four year old hates me. Let him. I'd rather he hated me for telling the truth than love me for feeding him lies.

You say you seek strength through faith from your god, not comfort. I'm having difficulty discerning the practical difference between the two. Perhaps you can help me.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

As it stands now, I am an atheist leaning agnostic. That said, I do my best to be as educated on as many different way of believing as possible.

After I stopped believing in the Christian God, I purchased books on Buddhism, Paganism, did research online line about Hinduism.You can't claim to know the truth, if you have nothing to compare it too. I believe many of the religions have good lessons, but I myself, do not currently believe in a deity.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I grew up an atheist, so I commonly suffer from "crises of faith".

The turning point came when God spoke in a loud, audible voice to me in answer to prayer when I was 22. Since then I've wavered in my walk with God, but never disbelieved The Existence.

a reply to: schuyler

I was reared in a non-religious household, the only time I heard God or Jesus Christ were in the context of "awww g-dammnit!!!" or "Jesus F**** Christ!!*....

My entire family, both parents, brother, sister, and myself - staunch atheist.

I was staunchly atheist until the age of 19....

So much for that theory.

Oh and have you ever heard of C.S. Lewis or Lee Strobel?

originally posted by: godlover25
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I grew up an atheist, so I commonly suffer from "crises of faith".

The turning point came when God spoke in a loud, audible voice to me in answer to prayer when I was 22. Since then I've wavered in my walk with God, but never disbelieved The Existence.

Would you mind describing that experience in detail?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I was raised in a very religious household. Christianity was the center of our lives. Everything we did revolved around religion. Like you (OP) I started questioning when I was very young. But I held onto my "faith" because it was what I was taught to do.

I never had a "Crisis of Faith" as I understand it. My exodus from religion and ALL things taught in religion began early and lasted for many years. It was a slow "evolution" (if I can use that word) of thought that brought me to what I believe today, which has nothing to do with a god, the bible or religion. It took many years to reject, one by one, the "truths" taught to me by church and my family. They didn't make any logical sense.

To be as clear as possible, I call myself an "agnostic atheist". I don't KNOW if there is a creator or deity, but I don't BELIEVE there is... I simply have no reason to believe there is. Here's an interesting video that explains what I mean.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I do not think that I could aspire to creating the same relationship between myself and a jug of milk, that I have with Jesus, with God. For a start, without God, according to my belief, there would be no milk at all. God is synonymous with creation for me, and by that I do not wish to come across as a creationist. I just mean that I believe that God, by whatever mechanism, caused the universe to come into being.

So putting my faith in mere matter, containing energy, does not work for me as much as putting my faith in a being which is responsible for the construction of the universe, existed before it, and will, likely as not, exist well after the heat death of the universe.

Now, you can feel free to disagree with the premise, that you do not believe that God created the universe,and caused the big bang, and you can even do what many rigid adherants to one or another of the institutionalised versions of my faith have a habit of doing, and damn me for a heretic because of that belief, but it will remain my belief.

With regard to your comments about your four year old neighbour, and his belief in the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus, the only reason you can say that of me, that my position reminds you of theirs, is simply that you have not lived in my shoes. Unlike your four year old neigbour, I have walked in dark places, seen a great many things, been under threat, survived hardships, including but not limited to being forced by law and circumstance to return to a place, day in, day out, which was full of people who at some point actually tried to kill or seriously injure me. I am refering to school.

I have also lived the life of an adult, lived on my own, taken responsibility for myself in a thousand ways that I would hope that child never has to encounter. Despite all of that, or perhaps because of it, I have retained my faith through circumstances which do not lend themselves easily to fantasy.

With regard to comfort and strength... Comfort is the circumstance of feeling solidly protected, warm. Strength is requiring no comfort, for however long is required of one. That is how I see these things.

I do not require comfort, a thing I can get from a decent matress, or a soft patch of earth. What I often require is strength, of body and of spirit, and when I have need of those things in greater measure than I can muster from my own reserves, I have great confidence in God that if I really need it, I will have access to it.

This is not a fairy tale that I tell myself for kicks. This belief is a matter of life and afterlife for me.