Is this really faith in life?

a reply to: tetra50

I am interested in the thoughts of others, and expect, especially, the Christian membership on this site, to flame away. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If anyone flames you for having a crisis of faith and claims he or she is a Christian while doing so, they are a liar. All Christians struggle from time to time, some more than others.

I have no easy answers for you, and that is the truth. Another thing I have often struggled with is the idea of pre-destiny. Revelations states that those whose names are not written in the book of life from the beginning of creation will be thrown into the lake of fire. What does that mean? If it's talking about people, than our choices don't really matter, do they? Your fate was sealed before you were even a glimmer in your daddy's eye. I eventually worked around that passage by convincing myself that there was no way to confirm who John was speaking about specifically. He could have been referring to fallen angels. But that interpretation could be viewed as a copout, depending on who you ask.

Whatever the case may be in your walk, I encourage you to finish it. Ask questions, but do so in a genuine spirit of yearning. Yearn for the truth with all your heart, and pray as you face these questions.

In the end, I figure a life lived aspiring to be a good person and seeking after the truth is not a life wasted. You won't relish the worldly things when you are on your deathbed. You will wonder if you loved enough, and I think that is the crux of the issue, and the foundation of the message Jesus was trying to convey to us.

Beware those who have all the answers

a reply to: Toadmund

same advice to you that I gave the OP...

Skip the OT... focus on the gospels...

a reply to: tetra50

I understand where your coming from. Try the Holy Vedas. Much more positive and straight forward.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: tetra50

sac·ra·ment noun ˈsa-krə-mənt
: an important Christian ceremony (such as baptism or marriage)

the Sacrament : the bread and wine that are eaten and drunk during the Christian ceremony of Communion

Full Definition of SACRAMENT

1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality

Thank you, Chronaut, for your response, and also, bringing me more to the point, as to Sacrament:

He not only turned the water into wine, etc….
but we are encouraged to believe through His words, at the Last Supper, that the sacrament of his sacrifice of blood, we should take to comfort us in his departure and absence:

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, ‘This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.’

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.’ And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.’

Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’

See what I am saying?

Does this not lead to cannabilism?

Read Isiaah: it will speak of "you will feed upon the flesh of your enemies, " etc…..

How is this a loving thy neighbor approach to anything, whatsoever?
Tetra

Well, historically, this has not led to cannibalism.

If Christ had just said "Cmon guys, can't we all just get along" we probably wouldn't be discussing it 2,000 years later.

If God just saved us from sin without our knowing of the awful consequence of it, there would be no repentance, no change of direction in thought or deed.

I'm not sure what your reply has, philosophically, to do with what I've presented.
Sometimes, I am not able to totally represent my thinking in words. Perhaps, I've failed here to get what I mean across to you.
Sincerely,
Tetra50

I am agreeing that the whole sacrament bit may be seen as God's media propaganda to get us to think of consequence and make some actual changes in our lives. It was more than a particular mechanism that fulfilled the law and negated our wrongdoing. We have to change, to not be that wrongdoer.

Dear DeadSeraph:

In the end, I figure a life lived aspiring to be a good person and seeking after the truth is not a life wasted. You won't relish the worldly things when you are on your deathbed. You will wonder if you loved enough, and I think that is the crux of the issue, and the foundation of the message Jesus was trying to convey to us.

Thank you so much for this answer….and for your spotting my crisis of faith and understanding it, and encouraging me, as a person of faith, not doubt, to continue to seek answers…..
means more than I can ever convey. And what you've written above, I quoted, because I found it beautiful and to the point, in a way I could never convey…

Tetra

a reply to: ladybug121

thank you Ladybug. I will seek that, as you've advised.
Tetra

originally posted by: tetra50
Dear DeadSeraph:

In the end, I figure a life lived aspiring to be a good person and seeking after the truth is not a life wasted. You won't relish the worldly things when you are on your deathbed. You will wonder if you loved enough, and I think that is the crux of the issue, and the foundation of the message Jesus was trying to convey to us.

Thank you so much for this answer….and for your spotting my crisis of faith and understanding it, and encouraging me, as a person of faith, not doubt, to continue to seek answers…..
means more than I can ever convey. And what you've written above, I quoted, because I found it beautiful and to the point, in a way I could never convey…

Tetra

God bless you.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: tetra50

Its a mess because no one cares... Most people would step on someone who actually needed help, wander off and get their coffee and the local starbucks, and continue on with their day without another thought...

No one gives a F*** about anyone but themselves... and its always been that way...

Ironically I just wrote a thread on this very thing... it seems I was meant to talk to you

I never knew you...

okay. i read your thread, and yes, perhaps, we were meant to speak to each other….so you could reinforce my faith that I'm having a true crisis within…..

But what I'm saying is a philosophical question about sacrifice, and the nature of it….
as it plays out in reality today….

His sacrifice, apparently, meant very little to most.

Even if it did, doesn't it translate into getting us used to the idea of sacrifice, which may not be a good thing, for what we are asked to do, in that vein, has no reward, nor point (more to the point) if it's only used to beget the same that got us here, and demanded the sacrifice of us, to begin with?
Tetra

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: tetra50
Dear DeadSeraph:

In the end, I figure a life lived aspiring to be a good person and seeking after the truth is not a life wasted. You won't relish the worldly things when you are on your deathbed. You will wonder if you loved enough, and I think that is the crux of the issue, and the foundation of the message Jesus was trying to convey to us.

Thank you so much for this answer….and for your spotting my crisis of faith and understanding it, and encouraging me, as a person of faith, not doubt, to continue to seek answers…..
means more than I can ever convey. And what you've written above, I quoted, because I found it beautiful and to the point, in a way I could never convey…

Tetra

God bless you.

I hope He will, despite my questioning….
Thanks ever so much for your understanding that has brought me to tears…
Tetra

If you ever come to the truth, I would like to hear it.

I am not a total atheist, just an agnostic that cattle prods christians to see if they have truth of what they believe.
None do, all that they have is faith, that doesn't cut it with me.

If you are a person who asks questions, I will see you in agnosticville, maybe even in atheistland?

There are no answers.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: tetra50

Its a mess because no one cares... Most people would step on someone who actually needed help, wander off and get their coffee and the local starbucks, and continue on with their day without another thought...

No one gives a F*** about anyone but themselves... and its always been that way...

Ironically I just wrote a thread on this very thing... it seems I was meant to talk to you

I never knew you...

okay. i read your thread, and yes, perhaps, we were meant to speak to each other….so you could reinforce my faith that I'm having a true crisis within…..

But what I'm saying is a philosophical question about sacrifice, and the nature of it….
as it plays out in reality today….

His sacrifice, apparently, meant very little to most.

Even if it did, doesn't it translate into getting us used to the idea of sacrifice, which may not be a good thing, for what we are asked to do, in that vein, has no reward, nor point (more to the point) if it's only used to beget the same that got us here, and demanded the sacrifice of us, to begin with?
Tetra

I don't see how getting used to it could be considered a bad thing...

Its actually learning to go against our nature as humans... we are inherently selfish...

Sacrifice is selfless...

a reply to: tetra50

One more message to you that I hope helps:

I used to talk to my mom all the time about my spiritual struggles. I would look around at the world and I would get pissed right off. Why do beautiful little 3 year old kids die of cancer? Why do people struggle and suffer? Why do the rich and the evil prosper, while the poor and the humble suffer? I would get angry not only at my own perceived suffering, but at the suffering of others, and then I would get even angrier because I wasn't supposed to question God.

But that last part isn't entirely true. My mom always used to tell me: "It's okay to be angry at God. He's big enough he can handle it."

That was one of the biggest gems of wisdom she ever passed on to me. We shouldn't live in a constant state of anger towards God (this is usually because we are more angry at ourselves and unwilling to look past our own pride and accept our own mortality and neediness), but when we do encounter struggles and crisis in our faith, there is no reason we can't lay that down at God's feet.

Picture a toddler who wails and screams when mom or dad limit the amount of treats the toddler can have in a given day. The toddler might scream "I HATE YOU!!!", but mom/dad know it's just the toddlers way of getting out their emotions. Dad doesn't love the toddler any less, and the toddler doesn't love Dad any less (once they calm down).

God can handle your questions, your doubts, even your anger. If you weren't questioning, and experiencing spiritual growing pains, it would be safe to say you weren't doing it right

originally posted by: Toadmund
If you ever come to the truth, I would like to hear it.

I am not a total atheist, just an agnostic that cattle prods christians to see if they have truth of what they believe.
None do, all that they have is faith, that doesn't cut it with me.

If you are a person who asks questions, I will see you in agnosticville, maybe even in atheistland?

There are no answers.

Dear Toadmund:

What I am constantly astounded by, and what reaffirms my faith, strangely, is this site…..for I've posed questions like this, here, struggled and been honest about my struggle, written about it here, and found people that responded to my questions here, so intuitively and caringly. just as you have now, which I appreciate more than I could ever express in words, while I struggle……..

Sure, I'll see you in agnosticville, and love that, btw…we must make our own words and places as we deal with our crises, huh.

I hope there are answers, if in nothing but that we respond to each other, hoping to give support, if not answers…..

I've pointed out what I feel are some truly possible perversions of faith in scripture here, and have yet to have a true answer to that….because the reality is, there is no answer to that.

I could give you a thread about time and the con related to it, on so many levels, and that would call into question what we believe in and invest in as related to history, and then so, the Bible…but I don't. I keep it personal, as to my struggle, because I believe that is what we're all doing: struggling with our daily lives, each other, authority, etc…..
Take care and be well. Appreciate your response, and reading my strangulated thoughts…
tetra

S&F I agree.

The sad thing about it is that most if not all Christians would go to the death defending their beliefs, beliefs that are untrue. The bible is corrupt, but at its core it has universal truth. The words of Jesus are universal truths that should be followed, love others as yourself and treat them as yourself.

It is too bad that so many people have been tricked but it is the way things go with men and their greed.

Look within yourself, not in a book that is thousands of years old written in a language you do not understand.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: tetra50

One more message to you that I hope helps:

I used to talk to my mom all the time about my spiritual struggles. I would look around at the world and I would get pissed right off. Why do beautiful little 3 year old kids die of cancer? Why do people struggle and suffer? Why do the rich and the evil prosper, while the poor and the humble suffer? I would get angry not only at my own perceived suffering, but at the suffering of others, and then I would get even angrier because I wasn't supposed to question God.

But that last part isn't entirely true. My mom always used to tell me: "It's okay to be angry at God. He's big enough he can handle it."

That was one of the biggest gems of wisdom she ever passed on to me. We shouldn't live in a constant state of anger towards God (this is usually because we are more angry at ourselves and unwilling to look past our own pride and accept our own mortality and neediness), but when we do encounter struggles and crisis in our faith, there is no reason we can't lay that down at God's feet.

Picture a toddler who wails and screams when mom or dad limit the amount of treats the toddler can have in a given day. The toddler might scream "I HATE YOU!!!", but mom/dad know it's just the toddlers way of getting out their emotions. Dad doesn't love the toddler any less, and the toddler doesn't love Dad any less (once they calm down).

God can handle your questions, your doubts, even your anger. If you weren't questioning, and experiencing spiritual growing pains, it would be safe to say you weren't doing it right

And God bless you, for reminding me, when i needed it most.
tetra

a reply to: Akragon

I don't see how getting used to it could be considered a bad thing...

Its actually learning to go against out nature as humans... we are inherently selfish...

Sacrifice is selfless...

YES.
I understand that.

But I think, perceive and observe we live in a world of lies, wherein choosing the truth or the lie means the same: a sacrifice of your life….for what?

And I've tried to quote verses that reinforce that, and ask the questions I've asked herein. What purpose is sacrifice, then?

I could built a whole argument about this: revelations, and being able to count the grains of sand, then mankind can answer his own choice of the throne of David's lineage, or any other, once we can count those grains of sand……

I will look for this verse, as i've given it as a proof…..that "truth" has become relative…given away, appropriated, and if that is so, then what does sacrifice mean, truly?
thanks, akragon, for considering my crisis seriously, and reading, and answering….
Tetra

a reply to: tetra50

The situation was not meant to instil sacrifice into a human. Jesus didnt sacrifice himself, he was killed. A simple misconception of language will solve the trouble with this view.

Jesus did not die for your sins. Jesus died 'because' of your sins. And not your sins, but the people of that times sins, and the people of this times sins. The innocent is sacrificed in the name of the beast. Jesus wanted to establish heaven on earth. The people of that time were not ready to form heaven on earth, because that would require not sinning. So they killed him. He died from their sins. Heaven is still not established on earth, because humans are still sinning.

Being a good person shouldnt be seen as a sacrifice to oneself. Though I suppose it can be.

If you are good and always do right, and then get robbed at gun point for all your worth and beat up and left for dead, that person can ask, why am i punished for being good. Meanwhile the bad guy got away, and was rewarded for his wickedness. In the world, I see what you mean, how symbolic and literal sacrificing of others, yields a gain for oneself, while neglecting to do such a thing, in a dog eat dog world, or having perfect morals, can negatively affect a person. So you are saying in this world, if all that truly matters is living day to day, and gaining health and materiel for comfort in this world, is being a good person to others, sacrificing your self, giving to charity, etc. truly good for you?

I would like to thank everyone who has read and replied to my thread. All of you have had tremendous sensitivity to my pain and questions, and your attention is much appreciated.
Happy Memorial Day.
Tetra

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: Akragon

then mankind can answer his own choice of the throne of David's lineage

Can you elucidate why you bring up Davids lineage, what you mean by it?

Im assuming you bring it up in relation to theory being that 'the saviour/messiah/2nd coming' will be from King Davids bloodline?

If that is so, being that I am not extremely familiar with the bible or its "formal" "study", I was wondering where the agreement to that claim comes from?

Does it state explicitly in the bible that about King Davids lineage?

Or is this something "scholars" "have concluded" and "agree upon"?

And im wondering if that later, what exactly are their reasons for doing so.

Nice thread Tetra, hope you had a great day and night, and as to not discriminate, and as to be lazy, may all your days and night be great from here on out!

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: tetra50

The situation was not meant to instil sacrifice into a human. Jesus didnt sacrifice himself, he was killed. A simple misconception of language will solve the trouble with this view.

Jesus did not die for your sins. Jesus died 'because' of your sins. And not your sins, but the people of that times sins, and the people of this times sins. The innocent is sacrificed in the name of the beast. Jesus wanted to establish heaven on earth. The people of that time were not ready to form heaven on earth, because that would require not sinning. So they killed him. He died from their sins. Heaven is still not established on earth, because humans are still sinning.

Being a good person shouldnt be seen as a sacrifice to oneself. Though I suppose it can be.

If you are good and always do right, and then get robbed at gun point for all your worth and beat up and left for dead, that person can ask, why am i punished for being good. Meanwhile the bad guy got away, and was rewarded for his wickedness. In the world, I see what you mean, how symbolic and literal sacrificing of others, yields a gain for oneself, while neglecting to do such a thing, in a dog eat dog world, or having perfect morals, can negatively affect a person. So you are saying in this world, if all that truly matters is living day to day, and gaining health and materiel for comfort in this world, is being a good person to others, sacrificing your self, giving to charity, etc. truly good for you?

Ima: first, you've uniquely understood what I believe, as well, to be the meaning of what happened with the crucifiction of Jesus. I agree, wholeheartedly. And though the distinctions are fine, they are certainly finely real.And capture the essence of what His sacrifice was supposed to mean, but what we've largely missed, and/or ignored…..

What I mean? That's altogether problematic for this thread, and otherwise…..

I could give many examples of how I believe and know reality is prefaced, syndicated, respun, augmented….
heretofore.
I choose not to do so, and let this be seen as a crisis, simply, in my own personal faith.

But let what I have not proved, nor addressed here, remain prominent.
For I think most of us know, here, we live in times which are dictating and respinning our history, without my providing proof of that. And that being said, it calls into question our most closely held beliefs, and what we base our most precious historical conclusions as mankind, upon….
If that is so, then we are asking and proving sacrifice as something holy, and then denying it, with that revision.
And in doing so, we ask others to answer a "trick question,' which they will be asked to sacrifice for, then denuding the said sacrifice.
Not only that, but why should anyone die for someone else' s wrongdoing? and aren't we just perpetuating that wrongdoing by heroically honoring the one who died for it originally? Get my point? He should not have died for what others did, though, said. By honoring him doing that, we continue the tradition of someone doing that, while the guilty go free…….and frame the innocent. and thereby perpetuate the sins that accomplished all I describe.
Tetra