Could this be the beginning of the end for Europe?

a reply to: Rodinus

I would think, with all of its troubles, the EU actually accomplished more to secure peace by its actions. Globalization, which many people hate, revolves around the central theme that when countries are forced to do business with each other there is a lesser chance of a war breaking out.

We can see this theory in action today with China, Russia, Germany, the US etc.

If we did not have the EU there is a good chance we would have seen more wars and not less. A war involving just the US, Russia and China would result in catastrophic economic failure which would spread to other nations.

Germany and its trade with Russia has been able to slow down actions towards Russia, forcing other nations to account for a nations economic issues at home.

I have seen people argue that the purpose of the EU and a single currency was to enable Europe to compete more directly and on par with the US while making it easier for European citizens to move about Europe. Another argument I saw in favor of the EU revolved around the single currency. They cited the economic advantage the US states have where a person can go from New York to California via single currency, benefitting the economies of the various states they drive through.

The flaw in the comparison / goal of the EU revolves around the fact that European nations are not "states" as we know them here. While Missouri can send representatives to other countries to negotiate economic items, they are limited beyond that since its the federal governments area.

The EU could work if they can find the right balance between sovereignty, what areas are under the control of the nation and what areas are for the EU "government".

We will eventually see a lot of changes down the road when the generation that is in charge who lived during WWII and the cold war are replaced by individuals who were either not born yet or were small children.

Egypt is another example - There was a poll conducted a few years back that askeddd questions about the view of every day Egyptians had towards various topics, including religion and foreign policy.

A large chunk took the religion issue head on by stating other religions should be respected and that Islam should not be "forcing" its beliefs on non Muslims.

There was also a good size chunk that really did not understand the issue towards Israel.

The over all sentiment was people are free to worship and deal with whomever they wish.

I think the EU is a good idea and I think it will work if they can get over the sovereignty issue.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg
Wales got the 'Law making powers' referendum through in 2011 with a turnout of 35.2%, and London got an elected mayoral system after their referendum with a turnout of 34.1% - The 1997 Welsh devolution referendum was only a 50.01% turnout and it was won with only 50.3% of those voting for it - basically, a mere quarter of the voting populace voted for it.

33.8% Turnout UK wide in these EU elections, with 27.5% voting UKIP is nothing to be sneezed at when you compare the above votes influencing policy in recent past.

Honestly, I think its a correction. Like with the Nasdaq, and otherwise. Europe needs to re-find it's old identity.

originally posted by: tadaman
All member nations were stronger before it (except Germany and France).....they seem to be profiting off everyones misery.

Wow. Careful now. That is a pretty serious accusation.

I agree with your stance towards the EU, but Germany being successful now has actually very little to do with the European Union.
The €uro helped to increase our exports, true, but that would be the €uro Zone, not the EU, and most Germans still oppose the €uro and would love to return to the Mark, because for the German people everything pretty much doubled in price since we lost our own currency.

Just for your information, I made a thread about Germany's success once on ATS here:
Deny your ignorance about Germany

'The beginning of the end for Europe' ???
This post was beyond ridiculous. My goodness.

Some people don't want a Europe for and by the banks and corporations as it is now. Just take a look how many ex-banksters have really high positions in it, officially or unofficially. Like chancellor Merkels adviser, Alexander Dibelius, (German chairman of Goldman-Sachs), Marco Draghi, the president of the ECB (Goldman-Sachs), former prime minister of Italy, Mario Monti (Goldman-Sachs), Greek prime minister Lucas Papademos (Goldman-Sachs) or Mark Carney, governor of the bank of England (Goldman-Sachs) just to name a few.

Banks and corporation don't need to be afraid though, since, as one bankster pointed out pretty quickly, the elected parliament doesn't have all that much power anyway. Most of the power lies with the EU-commissioners, who didn't get voted in by the citizens to begin with.

a reply to: Rodinus

In short... I hope so.

a reply to: ColCurious

most Germans still oppose the €uro and would love to return to the Mark, because for the German people everything pretty much doubled in price since we lost our own currency.

Yeah, In Spain we lost way over a third (almost half) of our buying power and everything is more expensive for us too. We would love to return to the Peseta. Thanks for the correction, Eurozone....

Germany and France to a lesser degree can at least dictate how much countries import and what German and French companies get German and French products in places like Spain since they dictate the terms of our credit loans.... which we need to survive, because of entering in the Euro!?!? Makes sense..lol

Loans lead to fiscal leadership from abroad. Its creating allot of animosity and resentment among countries that havent had a real problem in a very long time. Another sign /side effect of this....Immigration is now seen as a problem where it was once looked at as a blessing in Europe.

I just dont think this is a good idea. Everyone was happier and more united BEFORE the EU and the Euro.

Have a good one.
Hold it down.

originally posted by: tadaman

I just dont think this is a good idea. Everyone was happier and more united BEFORE the EU and the Euro.

Have a good one.
Hold it down.

Happier? a toss up.

Before the EU it was a bit easier from European countries to do things they have issues with now. When someone else is picking up the bigger ticket items, like a national defense, it tends to leave more money to do other things.

originally posted by: tadaman
Its creating allot of animosity and resentment among countries that havent had a real problem in a very long time.

I realize this and it honestly saddens me.
Look at the link in my reply... I disagree with our Chancellors EU-policies on almost all issues.

I just dont think this is a good idea. Everyone was happier and more united BEFORE the EU and the Euro.

And I absolutely agree with you.
I actually said this in another debate about Europe with the EU once, and it is even more true today:
"Look what the EU has done to us... the idea was to bring us closer together, and now the opposite is the case."
I just don't like being told that all our economic success is due to the EU or the €Z, because that is simply not true.

a reply to: Xcathdra

When someone else is picking up the bigger ticket items, like a national defense, it tends to leave more money to do other things.

Well I still dont see an EU army. I dont see a military threat to them in any more escalated terms than before. In fact unless the US were to change our foreign policy they dont need to spend all that much more on their militaries than before. The cutbacks in military spending for member states was out of necessity not because the perceived threat is less or better responded to by member states together.

Military contracts may be more profitable for a few developers. Thats about it.

There is a shortage not a surplus right now and that is not due to military spending. I think they were better off before the EU. I know of guys in the Spanish legion saying that they are being gutted to a point of no return.

Same for other forces all across Europe.

They just put all their eggs in one fiscal basket and when one fell they all fell and broke...and now all member states are all broke.

All I know is that Eastern EU workers have driven down quotes for construction work, big time.
As I said previously, if situations were reversed I'd probably do the same so I've no axe to grind with the individual workers, but it is why I want immigration laws changed to a system similar to what I would expect to face as a Brit wanting to work in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc.

a reply to: ColCurious

I just don't like being told that all our economic success is due to the EU or the €Z, because that is simply not true.

Agreed. I didnt want to come off like that. I admire the German work ethic. You guys deserve everything you have.

have a good one.

There has been a massive kick back against the established political parties here in the UK for a number of reasons. Some are not even European issues at all. Some people have voted based on genuine concerns, whilst others have been simply hoodwinked by seductive propaganda and not thought things through.

For example :

We have seen most of our major energy companies fall into foreign (European) ownership in the last decade and for many people their gas and electricity bills are a major concern after massive increases year on year. The major political parties talk about the problem but have seemingly decided it's a free market and will do very little about it.

We have seen massive companies like Amazon and Vodafone been given an easy time about their tax contributions whilst the poorest citizens are being told they will have to pay tax for a bedroom they don't need. Britain also voted for a Common Market and free trade with Europe not a bloated bureaucracy ruling us from Brussels.

Then there is the 'immigration' problem. All those Poles, other Eastern Europeans and now Romanians (even though I don't think many came here) taking our jobs. It's a bit like going back to when the Asians, West Indians and the Irish came here in days gone by to do the jobs none of our younger people want to do, hypnotized by an education system that tells them they can be whatever they want to be. When in fact unless you really excel and are prepared to work very hard then you can't.

If people, to whom English is a second language, are taking our jobs then you have to wonder about the abilities and motivation of the native population. The NHS employs about 25% doctors from abroad and would probably collapse without them.

Then we have our dearly beloved Premier League Football. About 60% of the playing staff and managers are foreigners and yet very few fans will complain about them taking our jobs and willingly pay for their season tickets and TV subscriptions. Double standards?

I do think the main reason is that people have got fed up of mainstream politicians who avoid questions by waffling and talk nothing but bland, double speak without ever saying what they really think. As for immigration it seems it is the WRONG immigration we are against. Even though we aren't really sure what the definition of that is at present.

originally posted by: Sheesh
a reply to: Rodinus
Every fool in politics, even the most radical, knows that France (for instance) lives off European subsidies for agriculture.

Say that to my French brother in-law who has a vineyard and grows non GMO cereals... as did my Father in-law before him.

They have NEVER recieved aid and are struggling to make ends meet whilst working their backsides off from 6 in the morning until extremely late at night... you will only see that with large corperate owned farm and vineyards...

Kindest respects

Rodinus

a reply to: mirageman

The only good thing about immigration is that it has led to a discussion of racism. Most immigrants are just freeloaders. Until they have a mentality of, what can I do to contribute to the world, instead of just looking out for themselves and having more kids, they won't offer anything.

a reply to: Rodinus

Killing off private land (farm/agriculture) ownership and use is Agenda 21 - you can see it all over the world - especially in the US.

Massive, unhindered 3rd world immigration into 1st world countries is another NWO goal - effectively killing off the middle class with taxes used to fund welfare programs for the poverty stricken "immigrants".


"free healthcare" for the poor, with the middle class being anihilated through taxes.... and unable to own private property....

We all have seen it.....

One should re=read the santa with the chainsaw post - he's got it right.... destroy everything now and then "fix" the problem with their new "solution".

It's the saul alinsky way to make everyone demand "communism" - the wealthy get even more wealthy, and the rest of us get poorer and stupider.....pun intended.

One should re=read the santa with the chainsaw post - he's got it right.... destroy everything now and then "fix" the problem with their new "solution".

I will have a look at that post, thanks.

Just for information, there is a book written quite a while back by an investigative journalist called Nick Davies... The book is called Dark Heart, The Shocking Truth About Hidden Britain.

Book description :

This all began quite unexpectedly one rainy autumn evening a couple of years ago in a fairground near to the centre of Nottingham...'

In amongst the bright lights and bumper cars, Nick Davies noticed two boys, no more than twelve years old, oddly detached from the fun of the scene. Davies discovered they were part of a network of children selling themselves on the streets of the city, running a nightly gauntlet of dangers: pimps, punters, the Vice Squad, disease, drugs. This propelled Davies into a journey of discovery through the slums and ghettoes of our cities. He found himself in crack houses and brothels, he befriended street gangs and drug dealers.

Davies' journey into the hidden realm is powerful, disturbing and impressive, and is bound to rouse controversy and demands for change. He unravels threads of Britain`s social fabric as he travels deeper and deeper into the country of poverty, towards the dark heart of British society.

This book talks about Britain, but I am sure that many members here can portray the same issues written in their own countries too.

Kindest respects

Rodinus

I might be wrong here, as it is only my impression, but the massive immigration problems in the UK and France are homemade. From the infos I can get here, the most problematic immigrants come from former colonies, namely India/Pakistan in the UK and Algeria/Morrocco in France. Many Brits/French complain about the islaminisation of their society, but there are no muslim countries in the EU and muslims are even in the eastern parts of the EU a minority.

Blaming the EU for selfmade errors is just the easy way and going out of the EU isn't solving the most pressing matters in immigration with these guys, I guess?

originally posted by: Talliostro
It isn't the End of the EU.
It's more likely a new start, when a not so little anymore minority does question the laws made in the EU parliament.
I hope that there is more control now in the parliament, when the critics can voice their concerns in a more coordinated fashion.
The german AfD is a euro-critic party too and got 7% of the votes. It's not the same situation like in France or the UK, but noteworthy too

EU laws are not made in the 'parliament' but by the unellected members, the parliament just rubber stamps the laws.