Scientists to Congress - Aliens Exist.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
You need to understand all this "special" life identification is a human only creation.

Scientists have their own definition of life but I consider it as consciousness. Is a planet conscious? Maybe...

a reply to: gortex
But to other planets we are alien life.

originally posted by: kykweer
a reply to: 7918465230

Even if you play powerball for eternity the odd will always stay the same, so there is a probability you will always pick the wrong number.

I don't know what you're not understanding. I even laid out a video that explained a very similar concept in great detail.

Listen, there is a finite amount of combinations of numbers to choose from in the lottery. Yes, the odds are always the same every time you play, and yes the numbers change every time you play. However, given the length of eternity, you are literally guaranteed to win an infinite amount of times. Eternity does not stop, whether it's a real thing or not, the concept is that it goes on forever. People win the lottery every day, and people win the powerball every couple weeks or months, and the odds are the same for them.

So lets work through this, there are a finite amount of combinations to choose from, and there are finite amount of possible outcomes, and you're saying that with an infinite amount of time, the odds are you're never going to win? The odds stay the same, but with an infinite amount of time you have time to go through all of the possible outcomes an infinite amount of times. Therefore, you will win an infinite amount of times.

a reply to: 7918465230

The odds stay the same, but with an infinite amount of time you have time to go through all of the possible outcomes an infinite amount of times. Therefore, you will win an infinite amount of times.

You're the guy that gets the free room in Vegas. This doesn't work as loosing streeks can go on indefinitely as well. Since the odds are the same, in an infinite set, the odds are the same, infinitely.

since the numbers change infinitely, you can also pick the wrong number infinitely.

originally posted by: compressedFusion
a reply to: Harte

It is almost surely the case (pardon my math humor).

What is the difference between:

A.) Certainty
B.) A probability of 1

Mathematicians would say:

Almost surely (Wikipedia)
Almost sure convergence (Wikipedia)
Strong law of large numbers (Wikipedia)

I believe it is a disconnect between the symbol mapping from math to natural language.

Each powerball drawing is an individual event. Hence, each event has precisely the same probability as the last one.

That's what mathematicians will say.

Might I suggest you purchase an infinite number of tickets to a single powerball?

Harte

a reply to: 7918465230

I am sorry but I just do not buy it, you can theorize infinity and the probability that there will be an eventuality, but you can't for sure say that it will happen.

In the vast universe there is an immeasurable amount of planets unless you can measure everywhere as once (such as playing a single lottery "197 million" times in one night.

It is possible you could win because someone has in the past, such as it is possible there is an earth like planet, because we are here, but there is no certainty that you will maybe one day some day win, we can't measure it with a practical way of thinking, there is no 100% chance.

ETA: Unless you want to get all philosophical about a "universal balance", but how scientific is that?


The "100%" part these scientists come up with is only to BS us general folk into funding their lives.

a reply to: kykweer

The "100%" part these scientists come up with is only to BS us general folk into funding their lives.

Yes, because they know that the majority of people are prone to thinking incorrectly about probability. Good poker players call them fish.

Gamblers Fallacy

originally posted by: kykweer
a reply to: 7918465230

I am sorry but I just do not buy it, you can theorize infinity and the probability that there will be an eventuality, but you can't for sure say that it will happen.

Think whatever you want to think. You're going to anyway, as you've already made up your mind. I have no idea what it is about infinity and eternity that people have such a hard time understanding, but the vast majority of people I argue with never seem to get it. There are a finite amount of possible outcomes, even including the change in number every time. Sure, it is a very very large number, and I have no idea what that actual number is, but it's finite nonetheless.

Infinity and eternity are not finite by definition, so you will eventually win. I'll belay the fact that you will win an infinite amount of times, because that seems too far over your head, for now.

And yes, I know all about gamblers fallacy. Please. I'd like to think just about everyone does. You fail to see or understand the length of eternity. THERE IS NO END. What part about that do you not get? Did you even watch the video I posted? Did you fail to understand its true meaning and/or relate it to the subject at hand?

originally posted by: Jungian
The fact that humans are to define what intelligent life is...speaks volumes of irony. If humans were intelligent they would have surpassed all the bigotry that takes place on Earth and moved on into space and beyond.

The thing is, I personally don't think intelligence alone has much to do with it. It is not due to intelligence alone that we got this far. Intelligence also has absolutely nothing to do with constant morality, and hence intelligence has no desire to eradicate bigotry.

What got us here, in my opinion, is 'consciousness'/self-awareness/'free-will'. Yes, these are abstract concepts that we don't completely understand yet, but it is 100% the core of our existence.

Our bodies are the Earth's greatest creation because they allow this phenomenon of an external observer to APPLY ITSELF more so than any other animal we know.

Of course, this is where the greatest paradox lies. The intangible controlling the tangible. The 'spiritual' meeting with the physical. They must bend for eachother.

If I put you on a computer that was out-dated, you are inherently limited. Your mind may think ahead and provide you some sort of improvement, but ultimately your actions will be constrained by the computer you are using.

Likewise, not all self-awareness can honourably express itself when it is handed and nurtured through bodies and brains that don't work 'properly', have been damaged or are easily influenced by others.

On the other hand, a human can willingly disconnect themselves from almost all evolutionary instincts and physical desires and dedicate their whole life to science. This shows that the true power will always come down to consciousness.

Mind, body and soul. The ancients weren't just rambling. It is a very real trinity. And unfortunately, A LOT of modern conspiracies ultimately boil down to controlling the 'mind'.

This is because if you can convince the 'soul' that the 'mind' is who it really is, and then influence the 'mind' - you can easily suppress the power of the individual 'soul'.

Psychology has shown us long ago that this 'mind' - the collective coded behaviours/instincts of your subconscious (your behavioural software so to say) is easily influenced. But I digress...this is not the point.

The point is, if we as humans had just inherent intelligence but absolutely no consciousness/seperation from reality/'free-will', it would be utterly meaningless since we could have not even developed any 'true' knowledge.

We are speaking about genetic intelligence here, rather than the intelligence that arises from knowledge. Since the common view is that humans are simply different from animals from a purely inherent intelligence, this is the starting point I'm taking.

If a human did not have true consciousness he would create his first tool by pure virtue of an inherited and programmed instinct that would drive the human to explore based on some survival factors/trial error or some algorithm of such. That's because no independent thought seperate to reality could have made the observation that a sharp object pierces things naturally and hence it could use this 'body' to physically create a similar thing.

In the first case, the human would simply mindlessly create a tool to test it out, find out the pointed edge works best because the animals absolutely covered in blood and more dead than you could ever imagine, and hence that humans code will then command him to store this as memory and proceed with the algorithm as before.

Other humans could observe this and then mimic it based on their own feedback senses/memory systems. No conscious observer required, just intelligent robots.

But in the second case, the human will realise his assumption was right, and after feeling the REAL pleasure of achievement and pride (from an external sense since in reality there is no need for emotions to be 'felt', simply for reactive behaviours to be triggered), he will wonder why it worked. And it's THIS that leads to our brilliance, as well as our downfall.

Why would only the conscious human truly wonder? Because it can command itself!!! The answer is at our fingertips, literally. Move your hand and realise instantly what our true gift is. And because of that, our knowledge becomes limitless.

Where as the purely intelligent human, packed with the greatest learning algorithms, will forever be limited by the inherent nature of his code. If the nature of the code is survival, then it is forever bound to that 'logic'.

Free-will cannot truly be coded, because even then it would be an illusion. Experience of sense cannot truly occur without seperation. I cannot explain this with the word limit I have.

My best scientific bet is that our 'souls' are seperate systems of matter/energy/information, entangled and existing parallel with our physical. And our universe is akin to a quantum simulator, computing two seperate yet fundamentally linked existences.

And for those reasons bigotry, suffering, pain and 'evil' MUST exist.

Free-will will always express itself how it wishes. Anything else requires oppression and control.

And you do not get to this stage without the gift of consciousness - I assure you that with the minuscule understanding I have of this place.

These concepts were covered extensively by the ancients. The 'knowledge of Good and Bad' is an obvious example. It was seen as a negative thing, either by us or by the 'Gods'. They symbolically understood this, one way or another. At least, the clever ones.

Why is it that we have forgotten these truths? Why do people actually ask 'If God exists why is there suffering?'. The importance of that question in this context has nothing to do with 'God', but in the fact that it shows we have lost understanding of the gift (from nature or God or whatever you fancy).

You cannot take the good without the bad. That is a fundamental truth of the gift of consciousness. There is NO PEACE WITHOUT OPPRESSION.

Sorry I rambled as usual. I could be wrong about everything, but ultimately, if intelligent alien life exists (I'm personally almost certain), to the point where they have 'human like' utilisation of technology, I can also concur they most likely also have this gift of focused consciousness within an advanced physical conduit, and hence a seperate will and desire.

People often say they must have mastered 'love and peace' to 'reach us'. Nonsense. A centralised 'royal' power elite with complete and utter oppressive rule over a planet can easily achieve technological advances, perhaps even quicker than we do, if its the goal. Although, that is peace of course.

The sooner we understand there is NO NATURAL EVOLUTION towards 'goodness', the better. What a dangerous false hope. And co-operation from a socio-evolutionary point is not the same. Those actions are justified from an evolutionary view as being driven by selfish survival instincts rather than true will.

Either way, I don't think we should be too excited if conscious, intelligent and advanced life is out there. ESPECIALLY if they've already visited us. Then we are most likely a zoo/slave race, because we definitely haven't had any help when we've needed it throughout our history... And if we have, we managed to turn it into a tool for bloodshed...like always.

a reply to: 7918465230

Infinity and eternity are not finite by definition, so you will eventually win. I'll belay the fact that you will win an infinite amount of times, because that seems too far over your head, for now.

If you can win an infinite amount of times, why can't you loose an infinite amount of times? How can both be possible?
if I have an infinite amount of money to buy an infinite amount of lottery tickets, why do I need to play the lottery?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: 7918465230

Infinity and eternity are not finite by definition, so you will eventually win. I'll belay the fact that you will win an infinite amount of times, because that seems too far over your head, for now.

If you can win an infinite amount of times, why can't you loose an infinite amount of times? How can both be possible?
if I have an infinite amount of money to buy an infinite amount of lottery tickets, why do I need to play the lottery?

Because infinity is bigger than you think. You can both win and lose an infinite amount of times. Again, you are misunderstanding the very basic concept that is infinity. There's a reason infinity is represented as this symbol: ∞.

And the money part has nothing to do with it.

What it all boils down to is that it doesn't really matter whether the probability of intelligent aliens existing is low or high. Until some weird critter lands its flying saucer and we can all point at it and say, "Yes, we agree that is certainly an alien," it doesn't matter if there's probably intelligent aliens lurking behind every planet an hunk of space rock out there.

Because on a practical level aliens don't exist unless we interact with them in some way, and we have some kind of specific knowledge about them. I can hypothesize all day long about aliens -- how big they are, what they're made of, what kind of music they like, etc. But at the end of that day, they're still hypothetical. They don't exist.

So there's another way that the Drake Equation is basically pointless. Even if a flying saucer landed, and the aliens on board had no knowledge of any other kinds of aliens, then the equation would only equal 1 (plus us). Duh! You can't use it to extrapolate. We either know that an alien species exists (because we have evidence/proof of it), or we don't. And we will only know the true number of aliens species in the universe after we've counted them all, because "potential" alien species don't really exist.

a reply to: 7918465230

Because infinity is bigger than you think

No, its bigger than what you think times infinity!

You can both win and lose an infinite amount of times.

OK, I break even. So you are saying aliens exist infinitely and aliens do not exist infinitely? So both are correct statements?

you are misunderstanding the very basic concept that is infinity.

well hopefully you can explain it better.

And the money part has nothing to do with it.

why not? I do need an infinite amount of money to play. Don't I? Are these free lottery tickets?

here is something

“Most certainly, some planets are not inhabited, but others are, and among these there must exist life under all conditions and phases of development.” Nikola Tesla “How To Signal To Mars” (New York Times, May 23rd, 1909)

then again he believed that he can comunicate with aliens with a few of his inventions ,

a reply to: Harte

The question at hand was as follows:

originally posted by: 7918465230
Yes. Forever is a long time, and the powerball is only like 197 million to 1 if I recall. So yes, you will eventually win

Your response was.

That is not the case at all. Probability cannot become certainty.

And

Each powerball drawing is an individual event. Hence, each event has precisely the same probability as the last one.

Both of your statements are true. The 1st, while technically correct, is somewhat misleading outside of the scope of the precise language in math (i.e. the vernacular here on ATS). The 2nd statement is not relevant to my point.

If you play a lottery with odds, p_lotto = 1 in 197,000,00 chance of winning, an infinite number of times then the probability that you will win at least once is 1. This is the strong law of large numbers. It would be formally written as:

P( p_lotto(n)_lim n→∞ = 1/197,000,000) = 1, where n equals the number of independent attempts at playing the lottery. Here P is the probability that you will win at least once. Notice that the probability of any 1 given trial doesn't change and is always 1/197,000,000. Please note the difference between probability p_lotto and probability P.

Strong law of large numbers (Wikipedia)

Although it is not certain it will almost surely happen. Here both certain and almost surely have precise mathematical definitions that don't necessarily correspond to everyday speech. The same can be said for the logical OR function and english grammar.

In probability theory, one says that an event happens almost surely (sometimes abbreviated as a.s.) if it happens with probability one

originally posted by: Wolfenz
here is something


“Most certainly, some planets are not inhabited, but others are, and among these there must exist life under all conditions and phases of development.” Nikola Tesla “How To Signal To Mars” (New York Times, May 23rd, 1909)

then again he believed that he can comunicate with aliens with a few of his inventions ,

Tesla Listens To The Stars Working late one night on his powerful and sensitive radio receiver, Tesla observed strange rhythmic pulses on the receiver. He concluded that there was no possible explanation other than some effort was being made to communicate with Earth by creatures from another planet. Tesla reveals the discovery and is highly criticized.

www.teslauniverse.com...-1899

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: 7918465230

OK, I break even. So you are saying aliens exist infinitely and aliens do not exist infinitely? So both are correct statements?

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, and that is a slightly harder question to wrap your mind around.

Let's say we're the aliens, beings we at least think (in our minds) that we're real. We both exist and don't exist at some point (or more likely multiple repeating points) in the realm of infinity. We aren't infinite as far as I can tell, so initially you would think the answer would be more no than yes, but probably lie in the gray area in between. I guess the answer would vary drastically based on how you worded the question, and how you worded it was very direct, likely requiring a yes or no answer. I'm going to say yes.

Please watch the video I posted previously, and try and understand, if you already haven't, the concepts he's trying to convey. He's essentially saying, for a large part of the video, that given a long enough time period, the universe will actually revert to it's exact state, and any possible state in between. So, if the universe, or time, is long enough, or is bent around itself like a möbius strip, then any possible state of the universe will occur. That includes you winning the lottery. That also includes all of the movies ever made actually playing out in reality. It also includes a version of yourself, either in far distant past, or the far distant future dating the hottest woman on earth, and acquiring trillions of dollars in assets.

And beings we're talking about infinity (which is just a theory btw, as is eternity), that would technically happen over and over again, over vast time scales, forever. Like I said though, the thought of infinity is more or less a theory. I doubt anyone could really prove that it actually exists.

Also:
"And the money part has nothing to do with it."

why not? I do need an infinite amount of money to play. Don't I? Are these free lottery tickets?

Yes, they're free lottery tickets. It's a thought experiment, and the money to buy them is far from the point.

Also, I found this comment of yours:

If you can win an infinite amount of times, why can't you loose an infinite amount of times? How can both be possible?
if I have an infinite amount of money to buy an infinite amount of lottery tickets, why do I need to play the lottery?

Yes, you can both win and lose an infinite amount of times. Both can be possible because infinity has no end.

in·fin·i·ty:
: the quality of having no limits or end : the quality of being infinite

: a space, amount, or period of time that has no limits or end

Again, the money thing is not the point at all.

They have to look elsewhere for intelligence...it sure isn't in our congress at the moment!!! Nor the White House!!

From a purely scientific and mathematical perspective this FACT has been known...

a reply to: EnigmaAgent

“Human beings are under the control of a strange force that bends them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception.”
--Dr. Jacques Vallee

“The UFOnauts and the demons of past days are probably identical.”
--Dr. Pierre Guerin

“The UFO phenomenon simply does not behave like extraterrestrial visitors. It actually molds itself in order to fit a given culture.”
--John Ankenberg

“One theory that can no longer be taken seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”
--Sir Arthur C. Clarke

“The evidence suggests that this is a program.”
--Prof. David Jacobs, Temple Univ.

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