Michael Moore comments on the latest American shooting.

a reply to: dollukka

Then England, Australia and Scotland have genocides coming soon, right?

a reply to: LogicalGraphitti
Mass killings of one kind or another predate history. Mass killings by gun in the USA predate the USA.

The first school shooting I remember being a big story was in 1979. The shooter was a girl. It is supposedly the inspiration for boomtown rats "I don't like Mondays". But I am sure there are older instances.

The Cleveland Elementary School shooting took place on January 29, 1979, in San Diego, California. Shots were fired at a public elementary school. The principal and a custodian were killed. Eight children and a police officer were injured. A 16-year-old girl, Brenda Spencer[1] (born April 3, 1962), who lived in a house across the street from the school, was convicted of the shootings. Tried as an adult, Spencer pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon, and was given an indefinite sentence. She is currently in prison.
en.wikipedia.org...(San_Diego

a reply to: Willtell
They all still allow ownership of guns for sport to this day.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

The law is very simple over here and if you wish to have your bolt-action rifle, shotgun etc. tucked up with in your bedroom, you may as long as you have a permit and it is kept securely locked away. Heck, you can even travel with them as long as your intentions are good. However, you go brandishing them around the main drag or decide to rig a rifle rack to the back of your truck and then you will be asked a few questions. I live in what you could call the country and shotguns and rifles are part of everyday life. Gun clubs were for the use of handguns really before they got banned. So, yeah figuratively speaking you could sleep with your rifle or shotgun in the UK.

a reply to: LarryLove

Thank you for some clarification on that. The 'stated' beliefs seem all over the place from a total firearms ban (which I've known wasn't accurate of course) to a situation of near 'visitation' terms for one's own firearms in a secure gun club...which is how I've heard it described several times.

It sounds like the truth lay inbetween and something you have me curious to go learn more about. I appreciate the personal perspective!

originally posted by: dollukka
Every time in history of modern man, when goverment has taken guns away from it´s citizens there has been huge genocides by the goverment.

Ottoman Turky 1915-17 Armenians 1-1.5 Mil. 1866 Art. 166, Penal Code

Soviet Union 1929-53 Anti-Comm. 20 Million 1929 Art. 128, Penal Code

Nazi Germany & occupied Europe 1933-45 Jews, Anti-Nazis, Gypsies 13 Million 1928 Law on Firearms & Ammun/Weapons Law,

China 1948-52 AntiCommunists 20 Million 1935 Arts. 186 & 7 Penal Code. Pro-Reform

Guatemala 1960-81 Mayan Indians 100,000

Uganda 1971-79 Christians, Pol. Rivals 300,000

Cambodia 1975-79 Educated Persons 1 Million Penal Code

TOTAL VICTIMS: 55.9 MILLION

And Guns don´t kill people People and Goverments do.

Australia took the guns away and there has been no genocide by the government.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

It really is pretty straightforward over here. They banned handguns a number of years ago but your guns are your guns in this country and may even have them in London! Now, if owner were to build a veritable armoury, then the authorities (and rightly so) may have a thing to say.

originally posted by: dollukka
Every time in history of modern man, when goverment has taken guns away from it´s citizens there has been huge genocides by the goverment.

Ottoman Turky 1915-17 Armenians 1-1.5 Mil. 1866 Art. 166, Penal Code

Soviet Union 1929-53 Anti-Comm. 20 Million 1929 Art. 128, Penal Code

Nazi Germany & occupied Europe 1933-45 Jews, Anti-Nazis, Gypsies 13 Million 1928 Law on Firearms & Ammun/Weapons Law,

China 1948-52 AntiCommunists 20 Million 1935 Arts. 186 & 7 Penal Code. Pro-Reform

Guatemala 1960-81 Mayan Indians 100,000

Uganda 1971-79 Christians, Pol. Rivals 300,000

Cambodia 1975-79 Educated Persons 1 Million Penal Code

TOTAL VICTIMS: 55.9 MILLION

And Guns don´t kill people People and Goverments do.

Believe it or not but Hitler actually wanted to arm the German people after seeing the genocide in the Soviet Union.

a reply to: bellagirl

First Michael Moore got off the stupid train but then he got right back on then got off again, kind of.

We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests."

This is where he is correct.

Americans arent violent because of Hollywood or movies or video games. Americans are violent because we have a government which has been promoting the use of violence for the past 50 years.

Abroad its been a policy of endless warfare, torture, mass genocide, black sites, secret renditions, glorifying killers ie snipers etc.

Domestically they are implementing a militarily armed and violent police force coupled with a domestic surveillance State.

While other countries have... more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns])...

Correct again. There are other nations which have a very high rate of gun ownership with little or no violence.

But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare.

...no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do...

Ah oh. Here Michael gets back on the stupid train with a connecting ticket for the blatantly lying train.

The US isnt even in the top 10:

These 10 Countries Have The World's Highest Murder Rates.

We won't pass the necessary laws...

All aboard the stupid train!

First he tried to explain the true cause of violence in our society but then gets right back to blaming an inanimate object and taking away our 2nd Amendment rights...

...but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time.

Off the stupid train, back to considering the real cause of violence in our society.

"Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people."

Almost made it off the stupid train but is desperately hanging on.

He's right, guns dont kill people.

Yes there are some Americans who are violent, but there are also plenty of other violent nations but they dont fit the narrative because often times their violence is committed without firearms.

Poverty is probably a major factor in foreign violence.

For us, its a government which has led by example. A government which sees violence as the solution to every problem, whether its endless warfare abroad or sending in small armies to settle "disputes" with ranchers.

Moore starts his propaganda piece with disinfo by labeling this a mass shooting when it is actually a mass murder that involved stabbing and shooting.

Half of the people he killed were stabbed to death.

He fatally stabbed three men in his residence, shot two women to death in front of a sorority house, shot a man to death inside a deli, exchanged gunfire twice with police and injured 13 people as he drove from block to block, the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office said Saturday night.

www.keyt.com...

a reply to: LarryLove

I wanted to come back and get your take on this.. I should have thought to look here first, but it slipped my mind.

(Gunpolicy.org)

What you said is definitely accurate, and I can see where much of the rest wouldn't be of concern or relevance outside the culture and society America has. In truth, yes, it does say anyone can apply for the privilege of a gun possession permit, and with the proper renewal to the 5 year permit, they can maintain a proscribed # of registered firearms.

I think it turns it into an interesting example of cultural differences and ways of thinking in even nations among the closest in shared history and heritage. Not wrong or weird, but different.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I agree, just different. The laws on firearms aren't really that dissimilar with the exception of handguns but our attitudes are. You can go buy yourself a rifle/shotgun on the high street, largely going through the same checks and balances as you would in the US. However, there is a wait time before the gun becomes yours -- a few days, not really sure but we have shops stocked to the hilt with weapons if one feels the need. Me, well i am not really into hunting but did enjoy clay pigeon shooting which I indulged in without supervision in fields and no one bothered us. Okay, we did piss a few horse riders off, but we were (and are) able to transport weapons and whatever ammunition needed to enjoy that sport as long as we act like responsible adults.

Edit: and as for self defence, well after some high profile cases that played out through the media, the laws were changed to allow greater latitude towards an individual protecting their property, lives and those of loved ones. Now, executions via lying in wait or other neferious forms of behaviour under the guise of self defence will bring about the full force of the law and rightly so. But protecting your family using a measured response will not land you in jail.

originally posted by: buster2010
Australia took the guns away and there has been no genocide by the government.

Yet...

-Peace-

a reply to: Eryiedes

Australia is still an armed nation — handguns etc. have been banned and this tenuous link at best to genocide makes about as much sense as all our collective misunderstandings about one another's country's gun laws.

originally posted by: jimmyx
because he tries to show that we can become better

I have a more realisitic goal for how Micheal Moore can become a better person.
He should start by losing some weight so he doesn't take up two seats whenever he flies...how about that?
It might lower that "carbon footprint" he seems to be so worried about.
Just a thought...

-Peace-

Dude must have hit the spot, we get it its not the guns that kill people, its also normal for so many gun death, its there god given right to shoot at people.

Its the rest of the world that has to come to america level.

Fun fact, violent crime has been going down in the usa for the past 20 years, firearms sales have gone up.

Go get that gun you never know when you might need to shoot someone.

Soo, if it isn't video games, hollywood, the gun capacity in the USA - what is driving your population so crazy? I don't see Europeans running around killing each other on a daily basis. Germany for example, which has only 70 million people had 2 killing sprees as far as I can remember. America tops that in a week.

Whats up with you guys over there? Serious question.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I cant quote the australian gun laws as i dont really know them and dont own a gun.

my understanding of it is that if you have a legitimate reason (hunting, sport, work etc) you get a permit (criminal and mental health checks are mandatory) and it must be kept in a gun safe which also there are rules for. to transport a gun it must be locked in a transport locked safe etc.

one of the big differences is the type of gun you can have. i wont quote what you can and cant have as i dont know but i know you cant have those automatic things that could take out 20 people in 20 seconds.

probably the biggest difference is availability. i couldnt imagine going to my local kmart (wallmart) and seeing weapons and ammunition. we hardly have any gun shops. i live in a semi rural area and couldnt for the life of me tell you where you could buy bullets.

double post

I would just like to comment that this shows a lot of improvement in his reasoning and that he's calmed down from the hysterical left-wing rhetoric by quite a margin.

I still don't necessarily agree with what he's saying, but it's nice to see him at least making an attempt at a sane, moderated commentary.